The Sub 3:15 Marathon Thread
1 lurker |
333 watchers
Aug 2017
10:02pm, 17 Aug 2017
3,103 posts
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Curly45
Calorie restriction is difficult as it can lead to low energy availability, most athletes need much higher EA, even at rest, than the general population or they dont get the adaptation (which happens at rest). They then dont understand why they get slower, and try to train harder or restrict more and get into a really difficult cycle. There is some more info on EA here: chaser.me.uk But what is really interesting is the first symptom of low EA is often a still restricted diet/increased training, but no further weight loss. I eat a high calorie, high fat diet. It is fairly low carb, with low processed sugars. I am slightly unusual, in that I cannot metabolise fat properly so I do have to eat something carbs based 1-2 times a week to top up my vitamins and energy stores. |
Aug 2017
10:29am, 18 Aug 2017
27,187 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Curly, that's a really interesting blog (actually some of the other articles looked good too, so I've bookmarked for a later read!) but I have to say, I didn't understand the calculations at all. For the example of the club runner, Case 1, he said that a heavier runner, with same amount of body fat, would require *lower* calorie intake and wouldn't suffer energy deficiency. Isn't that counter intuitive? Anyway, upshot is that you need to eat right amount of calories to fuel the training you're doing. I get that. I don't get how that enables you to race without taking on any fuel. But given that you have raced well and successfully in the past and are getting expert advice (which my knowledge and experience certainly isn't!) then I guess you've got it covered. I'd still like to understand it though! Best,  G
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Aug 2017
10:37am, 18 Aug 2017
3,104 posts
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Curly45
Possible because of difference in lean body mass (versus total mass)? I havent worked through the calculations myself, like you I just work on the general principle: eat to train. Which reminds me, must go and cook some breakfast. If you find out the answer to my freakiness, let me know
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Aug 2017
10:42am, 18 Aug 2017
27,189 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
I'm going with "your extraordinariness" Curly. I'm def not criticising. Just interested! Enjoy your breakfast! I don't often experience "low energy" in training, running or life. Only a couple of times in races have I experienced low energy and only once I have I properly "hit the wall". It's just that when we only do a few marathons across a number of months and years of training, I wan to avoid any excuse for it to go wrong. So in addition to training I usually race with lots of gels, diet a bit to be carrying minimum weight, have my race kit and race pace practiced so I know what I'm doing, taper and rest before hand, turn up early, minimize stress, run my own race and have prepared motivational kicks up the ar*e planned for myself when the going gets tough (which it always does). No excuses! G
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Aug 2017
10:58am, 18 Aug 2017
2,545 posts
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larkim
I got very confused reading that blog as he seems to sometimes pluck figures from nowhere. Case Study 1 interests me as a 3x or 4x a week runner who would be significantly heavier than examples he works through. He says the 50kg (!) runner has "minimum energy intake 2250 kcal" and then works that through and says they haven't got enough calorie intake. Now, if he said the 50kg runner actually consumes only 2250kcal, then the conclusion that they need more is supported by his maths (if you assume the premise of needing 45kcal/kg is right - I know not if that is true!). But he says the runner has a minimum intake of 2250kcal. If that's the minimum, then it shouldn't be a surprise that he needs more. On the second runner, 10kg heavier, he then miraculously adds 1000kg of energy input. I can't see where this comes from. If it's simply that the 10kg guy eats more, then yes I'd have said it was self evident that weighing 10kg more but consuming 1000kcal more would likely put you in a better energy position than the example of someone with insufficient. (Conversely, if he'd assumed the 2250kcal was sufficient, then it wouldn't have surprised me to learn that 3250kcal for another 10kg of mass was excessive calorie intake). I can't see where the 1000kcal of exercise energy expenditure comes from in the example, and can't reproduce his workings for the 3250kcal example (60kg-5kg fat = 55kg LBM / FFM. 3250-1000=2250, 2250/55=40.9kg. Perhaps he's doing 60kg-10%kg=54kg, 2250/54=42, but that assumes the EEE for a 50kg / 1hour running is the same for a 60kg / 1hour running, when it clearly won't be). |
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Aug 2017
11:00am, 18 Aug 2017
2,546 posts
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larkim
I do think he hits the nail on the head though as to why people like Curly can run a marathon without taking on additional "Energy needs are highly individual. No two runners are the same." |
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Aug 2017
12:18pm, 18 Aug 2017
27,190 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
The expression "X is highly individual. No two Y are the same." to me is almost always a statement of lack of understanding or of an attempt to explain an inexplicable system. I don't think human physiology is inexplicable or we wouldn't have medicine as a science/discipline, so think it's a bit of a cop out, personally.
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Aug 2017
12:33pm, 18 Aug 2017
2,548 posts
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larkim
True, true. But it does equally represent the fact that on a start line, two 35 year old men with 12 x 100 mile weeks behind them weighing 60kg each will experience glycogen deficiency at different times, even if they consume the same gels and drinks on a race. There is a degree of chaos in the system with outliers on every side. There are commonalities and averages, but even if there is a "normal distribution" from the mean, it still means there is sufficient diversity to suggest that its not straightforward to compare one individual in the population with another.
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Aug 2017
12:45pm, 18 Aug 2017
27,192 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
But larks (sorry to labour a point), I don't believe that, assuming they are both racing to 99.x% of their potential best performance, one will experience zero glycogen deficiency after e.g. 3 hour effort and the other will experience a significant physiological response, resulting in a physical inability to continue to fire muscles and a slow down to a bare shuffle, walk, crawl or even unconsciousness. They would both experience a significant slow down. The degree might vary slightly, but not to the extent that one would be able to complete with no discernible impact. Nope. |
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Aug 2017
1:01pm, 18 Aug 2017
2,550 posts
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larkim
I'm not saying they would have a high probability of such dramatic differences. But it could be the difference between one suffering adverse effects at 25.5 miles and the other on track for the same at 26.5 miles (but inherently not reaching that stage). And that would be based on the accumulated body physiology and metabolism that they bring to the event in the 35 years minus 12 weeks. e.g. studies like the one referred to in this programme (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/2lw8qKp7NFf7N7mhbXmsY34/why-do-some-people-put-on-weight-and-not-others-and-can-we-change-it) demonstrate that responses to foodstuffs varies. They are then researching the "why" (in that case, gut bacteria etc), but surely if we have proof that the same diet consumed by two otherwise similar individuals results in different metabolisation (?!), then equally the "no two runners are the same" suggestion comes through - their gut bacteria will be different, their mix of slow / fast twitch fibres will be different, their brains will activate responses in different ways etc etc. Using Curly as an example, perhaps (!) the wall for her would come at 27 miles. But unless she runs a 27 mile race in the same state as she approaches a 26.2 mile race, she won't know. |
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