2 Oct
10:59am, 2 Oct 2024
11,754 posts
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Fields
rf_fozzy wrote: Joe1970 wrote: According to the west, or the US-led empire, whatever you want to call it. Conspiracy theory nonsense Please provide evidence of a "US-led" empire. Dismissing someone’s argument as conspiracy theory nonsense is simplism |
2 Oct
11:02am, 2 Oct 2024
23,140 posts
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rf_fozzy
No sorry happy, will need to disagree with you here The idea that there is a significant foreign policy that the US is secretly (or not so secretly) building an "imperialist empire" is a widespread conspiracy theory on the left. Language like "US-led empire" directly ties into this conspiracy theory. (The roots coming from US covert actions in the cold war, particularly in the 50-80s, and Korean and Vietnam wars) We can have nuanced debates on US foreign policy, but the idea that it is secretly acting to make an empire by directing other states to act in certain directions is nonsense. Similarly saying it is "the west" doing all this is verging on the edge of this - what is "the west?" If you want to criticise Israeli state policy and actions do so and their abhorrent behaviour in Gaza and now Lebanon, do so. If you want to criticise UK or US or another country and their foreign policy, do so. If you want to ignore hostile actions of terrorist groups, you are free to do so. But don't spin all this into an giant overarching narrative that it's some kind direction that the US or UK or "The West" is directing. The world is a messy place. |
2 Oct
11:02am, 2 Oct 2024
199 posts
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Joe1970
Yep, what Happy said. You can define "the west" in many ways, but I see it broadly as a coalition of the powerful, including governments and media, and institutions like NATO. I'm not sure many would argue that this is not US-led? |
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2 Oct
11:06am, 2 Oct 2024
11,755 posts
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Fields
Israel has a lot of rope with the US strategically as it’s effectively a land based aircraft carrier in the midst of a lot of US enemies and frenemies, most of whom have oil and gas. They get a leeway with the EU / UK too partly as Germany feels historic guilt but also due to Islamophobia. Let’s not forget the EU has huge border fences to keep Muslim refugees from the Wests wars out of Europe. For all the talk of Hamas being a terrorist group, plenty of British WW2 veterans were murdered by Zionist terrorists during the 1940s. How soon we forget |
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2 Oct
11:07am, 2 Oct 2024
23,141 posts
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rf_fozzy
Joe1970 wrote: Yep, what Happy said. You can define "the west" in many ways, but I see it broadly as a coalition of the powerful, including governments and media, and institutions like NATO. I'm not sure many would argue that this is not US-led? Again leaning into the conspiracy angle. There is no overarching "coalition" of the powerful, governments that you might not like and media and NATO. This is the definition of a conspiracy theory! It is no different to those on the right saying the WEF and Klaus schaub and the bilderberg group etc are directing governments into the great replacement theory and the mainstream media are covering it up or other such nonsense. Because it's the same thing - a coalition of the powerful, governments that they might not like, supranational organisations and the media. |
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2 Oct
11:09am, 2 Oct 2024
11,756 posts
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Fields
Fozzy you say the roots come from the various wars the US has engaged in, what about all the democratically elected governments it conspired to topple in the Caribbean and South America. So it sounds like the roots for this come from historical fact. Perhaps if the US didn’t meddle and interfere and invade other countries the theory wouldn’t get traction |
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2 Oct
11:13am, 2 Oct 2024
23,142 posts
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rf_fozzy
Also the secretary general of NATO is Mark Rutte who is Dutch.... You can argue (correctly) that the US is the biggest contributor to NATO, and has the largest armed forces but that's about it. Because NATO is a *defensive* coalition. Yes it sometimes uses it's soft power as a diplomatic service, but it isnt actively hostile Again seeing NATO as something it isn't is where we get into trouble. There are various conspiracy theories spread by those on the left about NATO escalating or even being responsible for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They are obviously nonsense. |
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2 Oct
11:22am, 2 Oct 2024
11,758 posts
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Fields
Oh I forgot fozzy refuses to engage in debate with me and others. I believe that this is Simplism.
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2 Oct
11:24am, 2 Oct 2024
25,721 posts
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larkim
NATO is defensive in the same way that a nightclub bouncer is defensive. They aren't just there to defend, they are there to send a message which frightens off any aggression too; it is a tool of intimidation. It's naive to not see it from the perspective of those who it fundamentally opposes. That's not to say Russia or any other non-NATO country has a right therefore to feel "provoked". It absolutely doesn't. But it's not as simple as seeing them as a passive defensive object that, so long as it isn't poked, is of no other concern.
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2 Oct
11:28am, 2 Oct 2024
23,144 posts
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rf_fozzy
Yes, that's a fair criticism larkim But that criticism is taken to the extreme in some who want to see the world a certain way |
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