Feb 2022
1:26pm, 4 Feb 2022
2,870 posts
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JRitchie
I think the comparison with Ponzi scheme breaks in that its not future generations paying pensions but generation taxation. The link between NI and state benefits was broken long ago. Probably at the same time people started promising not to change income tax rates in manifestos. Employer's NIC has been a stealth tax of choice in recent times.
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Feb 2022
1:27pm, 4 Feb 2022
2,871 posts
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JRitchie
sorry General taxation not generation taxation.
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Feb 2022
1:27pm, 4 Feb 2022
2,533 posts
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Surelynot
Fozzy - I know how pensions work. I'm sure you not trying to sound patronising. My point is that there will be some negotiated settlement to ensure no gap in pension payments to pensioners to be paid while the tax arrangements in the new state are sorted out. This isn't 'British taxpayers paying for Scottish pensions'. All of your points about demographics and Ponzi schemes assume the status quo. I want to see a new Scottish state that is open to young immigrants to address the demographic issues we have and increase the tax base. There's no prospect of that happening when we're hitched to Westminster and it's anti-immigration government. |
Feb 2022
1:30pm, 4 Feb 2022
8,231 posts
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Dooogs
On the "are pensions a Ponzi scheme?" question, there are a couple of assumptions to unpick, mainly from this para: As the demographics of the UK get older (UK birth rate is still falling rapidly), there will be fewer people of working age in work and more pensioners. Thus pensions are going to get more and more and more and more and more and ever more expensive. This assumes that a) people will continue to qualify for state pensions in their mid-late 60s and b) the population of the UK will steadily decrease. Holding those assumptions, it doesn't look great for the UK state pension but I suspect that: a) there's going to be a push to increase the state pension age significantly in the next 10-20 years (maybe calculating it as being a pension for the average last 15 years of life, so if average life expectancy increases to 85, the pension age rises to 70); and b) much to nationalists' chagrin, I think the UK will continue net immigration to make up for the declining birth rate, not only (but including) to bolster the number of income taxpayers. |
Feb 2022
1:33pm, 4 Feb 2022
16,558 posts
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rf_fozzy
Then the SNP cannot say the UK government will pay scottish pensions. It's a lie. Because there hasn't been the negotation yet. They should say that they will negotiate for historic pension 'obligation' to be met by the UK government. |
Feb 2022
1:37pm, 4 Feb 2022
9,410 posts
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simbil
Fozzy, Yep, certainly appreciate the rUK would play hard ball and pretty much everything would be a negotiation. What I am saying though is it is not a completely unrealistic stance for the SNP to take. Because pensions do not require citizenship or residence, then the independence of Scotland can be argued to make no difference to the relationship between a pensioner and the UK government. |
Feb 2022
1:40pm, 4 Feb 2022
17,543 posts
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richmac
I feel we should progress to discussing the PM quoting the Lion King at staff today and how insane that makes him look theguardian.com |
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Feb 2022
1:42pm, 4 Feb 2022
16,559 posts
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rf_fozzy
Dooogs. Yes indeed. But (a) is extremely unpopular (as will be the inevitable removal of the triple lock), so it will happen v slowly. And if it goes too old - is there any point? One of the issues that gets overlooked too is that life expectancy is not the same as working life. It might be that in some professions (probably most on here) you can work to 70. But in others (particularly and especially those that are most reliant on the state pension), it's not physically possible to keep working. 65 is too old for some... and (b). Yes. But it will be at a lower rate and will be politically unpopular amongst certain groups. The migration we had when in an EU was insufficient to "top up" up UK population to compensate. And this was too much for large swathes of the population - stoked of course by certain special interests. Note hostility to refugees and assylum seekers that are so desperate that are crossing the channel in rubber boats because we've pretty much closed all legal routes into the UK. Additionally, this isn't just a UK issue - age demographics are increasing in most "western" countries - the UK is actually in a better place than some. And there's a moral issue - should we continue to import young workers (particularly professionals) from other countries at the cost those countries? I don't know the answer to that - but it is a fair question to ask. |
Feb 2022
1:43pm, 4 Feb 2022
52,734 posts
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LindsD
I'm sorry, but all I can think right now is 'twat'. I realise that's not very constructive.
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Feb 2022
1:43pm, 4 Feb 2022
52,735 posts
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LindsD
Not to anyone here, obvs. Johnson.
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