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Dec 2019
2:22pm, 21 Dec 2019
2,497 posts
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J2R
SPR, without Corbyn in place, Labour would almost certainly have been an unequivocally Remain party, and would have been arguing the case all along. I'm pretty sure that in the run-up to the election I saw polling showing quite clearly that Labour's stance was losing them far more Remainer votes than they were gaining Leaver votes. (As it happens, of course, they lost the Leaver votes anyway).
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Dec 2019
2:24pm, 21 Dec 2019
15,626 posts
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Chrisull
Couple of busy days and this thread has been busy! Agree with everything JB has posted (pretty much as always these days).
JDA - it's more nuanced. People do care about the lies, but they've dialed them into their opinion of Johnson and which went something like Johnson (lies + trashing the poor + Etonian/classist idiocy) < less worrying than Corbyn (no patriotism + Brexit stance + unaffordable/irrelevant manifesto).
Stander - Worrying to see the theme of "why should I subsidise people who don't work" resurface on this thread.
The economists from Adam Smith right through to Keynes envisaged a world where we don't HAVE to work 40 hours weeks, but more like 15 or 20 hours a week. I mean its a histotical anachonism we still work 40 hours. If we hadn't gone on strike in Victorian times and rioted a bit, we'd still be on 6 or 7 days a week with child labour being a thing.
So what is the obsession with work? Why do people so want to work and so want to look down on others who don't? Automation is gonna make more and more manual jobs irrelevant. So self-driving cars (20-30 years properly away still) are gonna make lorry drivers, couriers, etc etc obsolete. What then ? Force them to all become double glazing salesman?? Cold callers??? Customer service reps??? How is that useful to anybody's happiness?
My working life is not defined by me looking at my nextdoor neighbours and say I work harder than you. I actually don't care whether they work 80 hour weeks or live off the state. I don't need it for my state of self-validation.
We live in a world rapidly heating up, where every one of us will have to vastly modify our behaviours to ensure our children/grandchildren survive. Pressures on reducing consumption and travel are going to grow and grow. Working less will become a necessity. Most people don't perform necessary tasks when they work, so why make them do it? The main problem is the economy In the 1970s one persons wage could sustain a family. Now it takes two. Wages uses to rise with inflation. Now for a decade they have stagnated. Instead cheap credit (aka debt) is used to fund the difference, This is not sustainable.
The answer has to be some sort of universal basic income. (as proposed by Richard Nixon(!)and voted through the congress in the US so not really that radical) You want social care, volunteering, a sense of community? Then give people more time back to do these things. In Kenya where they ran "free money" schemes and just gave people free money they didn't piss it all up a wall, they paid off debts, invested in things to help run businesses, they built their economies. Let's do it here. Some people will always be more productive/helpful than others. that is the way of the world. But we should be projecting into the future, what kind of world we want our descendants to inherit, and one where they don't hate us too much....
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Dec 2019
2:40pm, 21 Dec 2019
29,815 posts
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SPR
J2R - Couple of weeks before the election, it was reported that remainers weren't the issue (If they wanted remain they couldn't vote Tory, and Lib Dems didn't get a big surge), it was leavers that were deserting the party.
So regardless of the leader, not sure how you keep them without saying you will leave.
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Dec 2019
2:49pm, 21 Dec 2019
2,498 posts
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J2R
My point is that as a result of Corbyn (and Milne) Labour wasted 3.5 years when they could have been arguing the case for remaining, showing how the EU wasn't the problem, the Tories' austerity was, with the likely result that there wouldn't have been so many 'Labour Leavers' to appease anyway. Still, all water under the bridge now, the damage has been done.
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Dec 2019
3:14pm, 21 Dec 2019
1,970 posts
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Canute
I am totally in agreement that we need to avoid over-heating the world and happy with the idea that we do not all need to work 40 hrs/week. There are lots of things we can do at a personal level (especially with regard to travel and consumption). I suspect many of us are already making some effort, though I am a bit disappointed that the vaporfly trend is pushing runners into pointless consumption.
However perhaps an even bigger question is what we can do to avoid democracy getting smothered by dishonesty. What any one person can do is small, but that is the essence of democracy. Perhaps the most easily defined thing if you are so inclined, is join the Labour party and help elect a sensible leader. If you are more at home with the Lib-Dems, your party needs a decent leader too. And if you are a principled conservative, your party needs even more radical rescue.
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Dec 2019
3:15pm, 21 Dec 2019
32,002 posts
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LindsD
*applauds*
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Dec 2019
3:36pm, 21 Dec 2019
7,020 posts
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Too Much Water
Interesting to see Andrew Yang who is a proponent of UBI is still in the Democratic presidential race.
Can’t see self driving vehicles coming in to take jobs away myself as the early trials have proved challenging eg the deaths caused.
Hopefully my new job doesn’t get automated any time soon. Not sure a law firm can really be automated however
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Dec 2019
3:47pm, 21 Dec 2019
15,627 posts
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Chrisull
SPR - Remainers were the issue.... Labour were in the mid 20s percentage wise, until they committed to the 2nd referendum. London and other metropolitan areas came back as a result. I wouldn't back a Leave backing party.
In fact Labour lost MORE voters to Remain parties in the final result (SNP/Greens/Lib Dems) than they did to leave parties (Tory/Brexit).
TMW - On Yang, my oldest son is a fan, and he speaks intelligently on a lot of issues. He won't get anywhere near the nomination though.
As for self-driving cars, you could be correct - crystal ball gazing is hard to do, but I do imagine that the likes of Amazon/Google will want to drive costs down, and despite the fatality stats, they are still far, far better than when humans are behind the wheel. I accept its the perception that's harder to shift.
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Dec 2019
3:53pm, 21 Dec 2019
15,628 posts
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Chrisull
Canute - for me it's simple, Labour have to join a progressive alliance, it's the only choice. Any new leader has to commit to that (RLB has already ruled that out). They cannot win without that. Tactical voting does not work, it has to be up to the parties to stand down in constituencies by prior agreement, because otherwise they will end up cancelling each other out. Without the 40-50 seats in Scotland, there can be no outright majority. And Scotland is not coming back any time soon. Blair is the only Labour leader in recent times to not require Scotland. Get PR so that people's votes counts. And yes if the Brexit Party gets seats as a result, that is fair, that is democracy. But so will the greens and Lib Dems get more.
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Dec 2019
4:02pm, 21 Dec 2019
29,816 posts
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SPR
Chris - Is that skewed by SNP in Scotland? I can't imagine it's true that they lost more votes to remain parties in England.
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Fantasy General Election
Jul 2024
