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Sep 2019
11:18am, 26 Sep 2019
16,086 posts
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Stander
Happy, if that happened (we end up with a Remain parliament and Article 50) , I would be very surprised indeed.
I suspect we then end up with the Brexit party becoming much more active and this whole circus continuing for many more years.
Hell, I'd even be tempted to join the Brexit party and canvas / campaign / stand for them. Except I'm in Priti Patel's ward and so we have an out and out Leaver MP here already.
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Sep 2019
11:20am, 26 Sep 2019
32,481 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
No probs with the typos Stander. And I understand that you mean "Leaving EU means leaving with no strings attached" (I'm paraphrasing you, hope that's OK).
And I also agree with you that I suspect that's what many voters in the referendum probably also thought.
But the bit I don't think everyone understood was the implications of that - huge cost to the economy, all sort of disruption for months or probably years, and significant security risks for a return to violence in Northern Ireland.
Or even just the much less important, but possibly more immediate ones of changes to mobile tariffs and holiday insurance travelling in the EU?!
And that's what our politicians (intelligent people!) and we (intelligent people) and surely you too (intelligent person!) do understand? And hence are trying to avoid.
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Sep 2019
11:21am, 26 Sep 2019
666 posts
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Roberto
Unless they make any referendum regarding revoking article 50 legally binding with no return to voting on it fir a set period of time (notwithstanding extreme circumstances laid out in advance). Then the brexit party would be irrelevant.
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Sep 2019
11:28am, 26 Sep 2019
5,288 posts
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jda
I think we should leave with the easiest trade deal in history, because we hold all the cards, and most importantly "we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave" because "taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop" as this was the specific promise of the leave campaign headed up by our current PM. Who could possibly object to that?
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Sep 2019
11:29am, 26 Sep 2019
13,298 posts
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Homer
Corbyn's need for power isn't helping anything or anyone. Bo Jo might be considered to be dangerous, but Corbyn isn't helping either
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Sep 2019
11:31am, 26 Sep 2019
15,271 posts
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Chrisull
stander - In Italy the neo-fascists have been prevented from gaining control after they chose to resign from the coalition trying to force a general election, which they may well have won as they were 10% ahead in the polls. But should a party be able to force a general election, just because they think they are ahead in the polls? Throughout the history of this country that has NOT been the case. (Major running scared from Blair anyone?)
Ok the logic is simple. The FTPA (Fixed Term Parliament Act) said that there should only be an election every 5 years. (I didn't agree with it) This was part of the Cameron govt legislation. Cameron was elected by a majority. Therefore this is a direct mandate from "the people". MPs as elected representatives to do their bidding. The majority in Parliament passed that law. As no-one else has stood on a clear manifesto pledge of repealing this legislation, I assume that no-one is *that* excised about it.
Now, it is the law. However, you are suggesting just because you think you can win a general election we should have one? Yet the 2015 law says they should be called every 5 years. Surely we should be respecting a law created by the Tory govt less than 5 years ago. And yes I don't like all the laws of this land, but rather than break them, I lobby for them to be changed.
Should I be able to rob a bank because I happy to be short of money one day? Should I choose which laws I can obey and which I cannot? Of course not. And before you mention the referendum, that was advisory, and not a law. Which is why I support a second referendum which is made automatically binding on whichever government is in place to enact it. If you want a general election, lobby your mp to vote to repeal the FTPA act, you will probably get a sympathetic ear is my guessing. That is how representative democracy works.
Social media has poisoned the well. We are not living in a participatory democracy - if we did move towards it, we need a very different constitution to deal with it. I support broad moves to make us more like Switzerland with a far greater degree of voter participation, but you need very great safeguards with it, because history has taught us that democracies with a large number of referendums aren't necessarily democratic, looking at the 1930s.
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Sep 2019
11:31am, 26 Sep 2019
16,087 posts
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Stander
The paraphrasing was close enough.
Happy - I knew that leaving wouldn't be easy. I knew we would have some disruption in some (many?) areas. I also knew there would be economic costs. And benefits.
I'm not the great unwashed that blindly believe whatever is written on the side of a campaign bus. I'm an accountant - I know how business works. I did my own research. No, I'm not going to rehash it here. Fed up of doing that elsewhere numerous times.
Despite all the negatives in leaving, I still firmly believe that in the long term (10+ years?) that it is the right thing to do.
One thing which I also hopes comes from this - whatever the final outcome ever ends up being - is policitcal and legal reform. This ruling elite thinking they can do what they want, irrespective of those that elect them must stop. And those blessed with money must stop using the courts to enforce their own political goals.
The juduicary is there to uphold the laws of the land - not to create them. That is the duty of parliament alone.
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Sep 2019
11:32am, 26 Sep 2019
5,289 posts
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jda
At this point I'm happy to describe anyone who is determined to leave with a no deal brexit, with the resultant ripping apart of families, destroying jobs and businesses and threatening medical supplies and civil unrest, as either a simpleton or a sociopath. I realise that this won't change their minds, but no rational debate will either, and it's important to recognise what we are up against. A cult, pure and simple.
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Sep 2019
11:36am, 26 Sep 2019
15,272 posts
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Chrisull
The May deal IS leaving.
I appreciate that it does not disentangle us fully from EU law (but the practicalities of of doing that, as pointed out before with 1000s of laws to look at choose and either cut and paste, delete or rewrite is a complete logistical nightmare that would take decades to resolve) , but in terms of trade and freedom of movement it is leaving. And in June 2016 that was plied what was on offer.
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Sep 2019
11:36am, 26 Sep 2019
16,088 posts
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Stander
Chris - The fixed term parliament act is the first thing that needs to be reformed. It has quite clearly be shown recently to be an absolute joke.
An opposition party turning down an election? It's game playing using this ridiculous act.
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Fantasy General Election
Jul 2024
