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Sep 2019
10:41am, 16 Sep 2019
290 posts
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deslauriers
Re: Lib dems and revocation
Shifting of the Overton window? Whether by design or not, I can't say.
A welcome shift to make a Second referendum more palatable much like the shift from a deal to avoiding no deal could make the WA seem welcome?
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Sep 2019
10:53am, 16 Sep 2019
18,836 posts
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DeeGee
It needed shifting, dl, given that until yesterday the two extremes of the discourse were "leave no deal now" and "leave with almost no deal later".
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Sep 2019
11:01am, 16 Sep 2019
18,837 posts
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DeeGee
Of course, it's left me in a huge quandary now, here in Brexitland.
Do I vote with my conscience, vote Lib Dem (something I've never done nationally in Great Grimsby) as I want Article 50 revoked, but conscious that this might split the radical vote and let the other side in to wreak their social genocide upon the nation.
Or do I vote for the incumbent Labour MP, a "leaver now!" ex-remainer who stands for a party which will negotiate an impossible jobs-first Brexit with similar red lines to the current "party first" brexit, then may or may not have a referendum where, like a party of Dominic Raabs, they'll campaign against the deal they've brokered; but whose party won't completely stamp all over the north?
For many years my GE vote has been for the party local to me that is least likely to drag us out of the EU, and now I'm confused as to what's best to continue not being dragged out of the EU.
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Sep 2019
11:10am, 16 Sep 2019
2,266 posts
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J2R
Yes, deslauriers, that's a good way of thinking about it. The Leave side has so far controlled the narrative, pushing to ever more extreme positions. Their greatest propaganda success has been to somehow convince a large percentage of the population that a second referendum, a chance for people to express their current preference and determine what might now be the closest thing to 'the will of the people', is undemocratic, whereas the PM suspending Parliament because he can't get his way is just fine. This must strike onlookers in the rest of the EU as being wholly bizarre.
Revoking A50 has as least as much democratic legitimacy as leaving without a deal, arguably more so in that the Commons hasn't explicitly voted against it, and will do far less damage (i.e., zero), so it needs to be talked about as a valid option. The Lib Dems adopting it will help with that.
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Sep 2019
11:14am, 16 Sep 2019
2,267 posts
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J2R
DeeGee, vote for the candidate most likely to keep out the No Dealer. Forget any other policies for now. They can come back into consideration once we've averted the national calamity of a No Deal. Labour need to stop obsessing about the Lib Dems' part in the coalition government, and the Lib Dems need to stop obsessing about Jeremy Corbyn. Just work together now and get this thing stopped.
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Sep 2019
11:24am, 16 Sep 2019
2,306 posts
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Fellrunning
I'm puzzled as to how putting a policy that's been voted for by party members in your election manifesto and inviting the voting public to vote for your candidates (or not) based on that manifesto is ignoring democracy. I'd say it's embracing democracy.
Incidentally UKIP stood for years with a manifesto pledge to leave the EU. Don't hear too many people saying that's undemocratic.
Perhaps it's me....
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Sep 2019
11:25am, 16 Sep 2019
18,839 posts
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DeeGee
Labour then, and hope the nutcase candidates punch each others' light out.
Of course, all this depends on when an election should take place.
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Sep 2019
11:27am, 16 Sep 2019
18,840 posts
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DeeGee
It couldn't be more democratic, FR. Seeing as how we live in a representative parliamentary democracy and that, and that there is no mechanism to make a referendum result legally binding upon any future government, let alone two governments hence.
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Sep 2019
11:31am, 16 Sep 2019
32,375 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
I think we should all vote for No Brexit. It's a type of "Not No-Deal Brexit". And it's a better one that a "Hard Deal Brexit".
I'm actually concerned that intelligent Remain supporting person like J2R would advocate voting for " the candidate most likely to keep out the No Dealer". Surely, if that candidate is a Yes Deal Brexit, then you're effectively voting for Brexit?
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Sep 2019
11:36am, 16 Sep 2019
18,841 posts
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DeeGee
That's my problem with the main opposition party to the Tories being a "maybe some deal" party. At least if I vote for the Lib Dem, I've pinned my colours to the mast.
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Fantasy General Election
Jul 2024