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Oct 2014
7:40pm, 5 Oct 2014
1,091 posts
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Canute
SPR
Yes, I think there is still a lack of depth in the female marathon.
However you look at it, Paula’s WR is exceptional . Scaling up from Wang Junxia’s 10,000m WR time gives a projected marathon of 2:18:30. The best recent 10,000m time (Meselech Melkamu of Ethiopia in 2009) scales up to 2:20:10. So almost certainly Paula had exceptional physiology, in addition to befitting from a male pacer in 2003. However, one might actually expect that woman would do relatively better at marathon than at shorter distances.
And I agree that Shalane was probably running at her limit in Berlin.
To me the interesting question is whether the women could train more effectively. At least in the US, I think they do too much training that is too fast. That was indicated by Karp’s analysis of the training of 2004 U.S. Olympic Marathon Trials qualifiers. That approach can work in the short and medium term (as it did for Paula – her pace at LT did improve steadily from age 18 to 28) but it leaves you on a knife edge, as indeed Paula’s history beyond age 28 appears to confirm.
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Oct 2014
9:30am, 6 Oct 2014
1,094 posts
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Canute
Perhaps I was a little too critical of current elite female marathoners in my recent comments, particularly in regard to difference between elite men and woman in the mental approach to fast marathon racing. As we have discussed, current male elites often begin to exert huge pressure round the halfway point or soon after. One of many examples was Kipsang’s crushing mid-race surge in VLM 2012. In fact in the women’s event on that day, Mary Keitany did something similar. After the leading women reached halfway in a leisurely 70:53, Mary then began increasing pace and covered the 5 Km from 35 to 40km in 15:45. That was the fastest 5Km split ever recorded by a woman in a major marathon, faster even than Radcliffe’s 15:47 for the first 5Km in London in 2005. Keitany’s finishing time was 2:18:37, ten seconds faster than Catherine Ndereba’s in Chicago in 2001
However, even if we set aside Paula’s phenomenal performances, it is interesting to note that apart from Liliya Shobukova (who is currently suspended for alleged blood doping) Mary Keitany is the only woman other that Paula to ever better the time set by Ndereba 13 years ago. Ndereba’s time was very close to what would be expected for a female marathoner based on the 10,000m world record at the time. It was great but not extraordinary. In light of the advances in the men’s times in the past 13 years, it is amazing that it is almost unknown for the winning time in a major women’s marathon on to match the time set in Chicago in 2001. Are they doing something wrong in training?
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Oct 2014
9:50am, 6 Oct 2014
11,553 posts
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The Teaboy
Wang Junxia was definitely juiced, but that is for another thread.
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Oct 2014
9:58am, 6 Oct 2014
1,095 posts
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Canute
It is true that unforttunately a cloud hangs over several of the womens' workd records at the shorter distasnces.
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Oct 2014
3:07pm, 12 Oct 2014
192 posts
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exflyboy
Hi Canute, I've been following this thread with keen interest, and am currently following a polarized approach to my training. For more than 2 years I had atrial fibrillation or flutter which was finally cured by a catheterial ablation in late July. When I was off the betablockers and able to run properly it was a bit of a shock to find out my 5k pace had dropped to just inside 28 mins, from 22 mins back in May 2012, despite keeping running at very slow pace for the period when I had the irregular heartbeat. I decided to follow a polarized approach as I would know exactly what effect it was having as I had lost so much fitness. Over the last 5 weeks Ive built up from 40 to 50 miles per week. The running is done at 75% max heart rate or slower, with the exception of running parkrun at all out effort. My pace at 135 bpm is steadily improving, probably a little under 10 min miling at present. My park run time was heading in the right direction but for the last two weeks its gone back a little as I'm feeling a bit tired on Saturday morning. My question is really whether improving pace at 135 bpm shows that everything is going ok, or should I make sure I'm fresh enough on Saturday morning to see steady improvement on my park run time.
I'm banking on 1000 miles in 20 weeks seeing my back to something like my 2012 form which meant I could run 8:30 miles at easy pace although I wasn't using the hrm then so easy might have been at slightly more than 135.
Any thoughts?
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Oct 2014
6:02pm, 12 Oct 2014
1,096 posts
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Canute
Exflyboy,
It seems to me that you have been following a very sensible schedule. However if the tiredness that has crept up on you in the past few weeks continues, I would be inclined to slacken the rate of progress a little. This could be achieved either by an easier pace in your easy sessions, or by doing a maximum effort parkrun on alternate weeks. If you become so fixed on achieving specific training targets that you suffer increasing tiredness, there is a risk that the training will be less beneficial.
I myself am building up volume of easy running at present, and am taking care to ensure that I am not suffering accumulating tiredness. I have slackened the effort of my high intensity sessions a little in recent weeks. Once I have achieved my interim goal of four 2 hour easy runs each week I will increase the effort of the high intensity sessions again, and perhaps also make a small increase in the pace of my easy runs, but above all I will continue to monitor to make sure I do not suffer accumulating tiredness.
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Oct 2014
6:04pm, 12 Oct 2014
1,097 posts
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Canute
Week 32 polarised training
Easy running: 470 min, 6:07 /Km, aHR 77%
Elliptical easy: 69 min
High intensity: 27 min. 1x3min; 4x6 min, peak HR 91%
Total 563 min; 95.2% easy, 4.8 % high intensity
I am continuing to increase the duration of 4 easy longish runs each week. This week I did 4x155 minutes. I am deliberately running at a very relaxed pace. Nonetheless I am actually pleased to find that from time to time I have the urge to push the pace a little. I usually resist this urge as one of my priorities is minimising trauma to my leg muscles.
However on Saturday as I approached my intended turn-around point at Trent Bridge with almost an hour still to run, I found myself weaving though the oncoming tide of bedraggled competitors in the Survival of the Fittest 10Km event, running in the opposite direction along the river bank, with about 1Km of their race still to run. After I turned I was now going with the human tide so I allowed my pace to increase a bit to match those around me. It was scarcely a breath-taking pace but nonetheless I was pleased at how effortless it felt.
Once I have reached my interim target of four 120minute longish runs each week, I will experiment to see how my legs cope with a slightly faster pace, though minimising trauma to my leg muscles will remain a priority.
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Oct 2014
2:13am, 13 Oct 2014
389 posts
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Techthick
really enjoy your updates Canute... and glad training is going so well at present
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Oct 2014
3:31pm, 14 Oct 2014
193 posts
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exflyboy
Hi Canute, thanks for the advise. I'm keeping a careful eye on any sessions that I can do week to week comparisons on other than parkrun. Provided my pace at 75% max heart rate in improving for similar sessions then I think my mileage is ok. If the pace stagnates, I will reduce the mileage to become more rested and allow the fitness to show through. I will either do parkrun flat out only every second week or not fret if I'm not getting quicker every weekend.
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Oct 2014
8:47pm, 19 Oct 2014
1,099 posts
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Canute
Week 33 polarised training
Easy running: 480 min, 6:11 /Km, aHR 77%
Elliptical easy: 70 min
High intensity: 27 min. 1x3min; 4x6 min, peak HR 91%
Total 577 min; 95.3% easy, 4.7 % high intensity
This week I achieved my interim target of four easy 2 hour runs. However, I cannot yet make a definitive judgment as to whether I have managed this without any cumulative exhaustion, because I have been suffering from a very mild upper respiratory tract infection since Tuesday. This has not been severe enough to warrant missing any training sessions, but I have made a small decrease in the level of effort . My easy pace slowed from 6:09 /Km to 6:11/Km while aHR remained at 119. Whereas last week I had to restrain the urge to run faster, this week I did not feel as frisky.
I was amused to note that whereas last Saturday, when I found myself caught in the tide of macho competitors in the Survival of the Fittest 10K event as they ran along he banks of the Trent, I found it no effort at all to increase my pace to keep up with them, this week when I found myself behind a gleeful gaggle of girls in hockey kit running at a similar pace along the river bank I did not feel any inclination to match their pace. Perhaps the state of my upper airways was partly to blame in this instance, but in recent times I have had to relinquish the expectation that I will usually outpace riverside joggers during easy training runs. Through my mid-sixties I found paces in the range 5:45 -6:00 /Km easy. I hope that I will once again find that pace range easy, soon.
While this week’s upper respiratory symptoms have clouded the issue a bit, I am fairly confident that I have made substantial gains in some aspects of fitness since focussing on building the duration of four longish runs each week. Prior to this past week, my pace when breathing comfortably at one breath cycle every 8 steps had improved from around 6:30 to 6:09 /Km. I have experienced only minimal tiredness and aches in my legs despite doing a greater volume of training in the past 5 weeks than in any five week period for over 40 years. But the real test of how well my legs are coping will come when I introduce more high intensity running. So far, so good, but it is too early for definitive conclusions.
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80/20
Jun 2019