|
Sep 2014
8:51am, 23 Sep 2014
19,633 posts
|
SPR
Agree Canute, my standard distance at track was 60m reps with a couple of 150m repsreps after for speed endurance.
Interesting information on Whitlock, Good luck with your attempt to emulate him.
|
|
Sep 2014
3:48pm, 25 Sep 2014
268 posts
|
tipsku
Canute, your blog was very informative and helpful again.
I'd have a question regarding the deterioration of running form due to fatigue in the second half of a marathon. FenlandRunner already pointed out the crucial quote
"A large amount of slow running will also help develop the muscle resilience to cope with a long duration of running, though perhaps not the resilience required to maintain marathon pace for a long period."
The addition of plyometrics or sprints was mentioned as one way of avoiding the loss of muscle power long into the run. What do you think of Fast Finish Long Runs, e.g. a 20 miler with the last 5 miles at PMP a.k.a. the Gobi20? Or an 18 mile run with 7x 90 sec bursts at 5k pace with 3 min recoveries starting at mile 11? I have used both types of LRs in my marathon training besides normal LSRs and I have found that they help me to cope with the accumulated fatigue late in the race. I finish most of my marathons with negative splits, except if the second half is much harder than the first. In my experience keeping the HR below LT until the final 5-8 miles (depending on fitness) is one key aspect of running negative splits, training your body to work harder in the second half is the other. I believe that you can get your legs used to it.
|
|
Sep 2014
5:38pm, 25 Sep 2014
2,763 posts
|
FenlandRunner
My last two marathons (not Ultra's) I've felt strong (leg's haven't faded) in the last 10k.
Hoping during Sunday marathon's my legs feel the same, as it is a quick flat course 
|
|
Sep 2014
6:13pm, 25 Sep 2014
1,077 posts
|
Canute
Tipsku
I too believe there is benefit in faster running in the late stages of a long run, provided you have built up gradually to prepare your legs to cope with this. It will almost certainly train your central governor to allow you to push yourself harder in the final stages of a marathon. However, caution is necessary. I think that if you do fast running at the end of a long run before you have prepared your legs well for this, there is a risk it might be destructive, resulting in excessive microscopic damage to leg muscles or even perhaps overt injury.
I think there are several strategies for preparing for fast running at the end of long runs: 1) progressive short runs gradually extending to long runs; 2) specific strategies to increase strength and power such as sprints, drills, moderate plyometrics or hills; 3) cruise intervals.
|
|
Sep 2014
6:25pm, 25 Sep 2014
1,078 posts
|
Canute
FR Best wishes for Sunday. Your extensive background of running long distances has almost given you resilient legs and your recent focus on quality running and swimming should allow you to start with legs that are well tuned-up but not tired.
Though if you want to be still running good marathons at age 70, you might be best returning to a more polarised distribution of training paces
|
|
Sep 2014
9:04pm, 25 Sep 2014
2,765 posts
|
FenlandRunner
Thanks Canute. Your words of wisdom are always welcome.
|
|
Sep 2014
10:39pm, 25 Sep 2014
6,540 posts
|
Chrisull
A word of warning on fast finishing to long runs, I've done that a fair few times and with success in training, but never replicated on race day, although admittedly once I have managed a plan to pick up pace between miles 15-20 to 7.10 pace, but this was knowing miles 21-25 were all up hill and this was to bank a sub 3.30 on the Cornish (which worked I did 3.26, still perhaps my best tactically planned race ever). This strategy worked, but I find after mile 21 I am incapable of picking up the pace, sometimes through exhaustion but sometimes frustratingly through immobility. Unfortunately there aren't any LSRS designed to pick up the pace between miles 21 and 25 unless you go close to marathon distance or over distance, and talking to other runs over distance for marathon is not generally recommended. Plyometrics as recommended earlier sound like an interesting possible route to follow.
|
|
Sep 2014
10:43pm, 25 Sep 2014
19,634 posts
|
SPR
The fast finish runs aren't about picking up pace in a race, they're about practising race pace when tired. Racing should be at close to even pace.
|
|
Sep 2014
11:56pm, 25 Sep 2014
269 posts
|
tipsku
Thanks everyone for your comments. It is very helpful to read about other runners' experiences and strategies. I'll definitely include more plyometrics in my next training cycle. I've been successful with my strategy but there's always room for improvement and if you don't make any changes, there is the danger of hitting a plateau.
I found that fast finish runs, either with a set distance I run at race pace or several shorter bursts helped me, but I haven't included them in my training until I had 5 or 6 marathons under my belt and also trained myself up to faster pace over 10k and HM distance. So I totally agree with you, Canute, that it can be too much for a novice. Also, I normally do them only about 1 in 3 Long Runs to avoid overload and injury.
I like the idea of increasing the length of progression runs, too. I may try that in 2015 because it could be useful for 10k or half-marathon training as well. I'm comparatively slow over shorter distances so finding training that gets me up to speed there is very welcome. Thanks for suggesting that.
|
|
Sep 2014
11:58pm, 25 Sep 2014
270 posts
|
tipsku
I think it is down to individual differences which strategy works best for each of us. The most effective for me (so far) has been the fast finish LR. Since doing a few of them in the build-up, I've had a 100% record for PB attempts in marathons and the last 3-5 miles are the fastest of the entire race so the step up from a 20 mile training run with a fast finish to the full 26.2 is not a big problem for me. I admit that I feel fatigue getting worse and worse after 20 miles but that's mainly mental, not physical for me. If I don't pay attention, I slow down but if I keep pushing, I can speed up above average pace, e.g. 8:15 m/m in my last marathon, for the final miles, 8:11, 8:07, 7:55 and 7:48 for miles 23-26.
As to the problem of immobility that you mentioned, Chrisull, I'm not 100% sure what the cause of that is, but I could imagine it is fatigue of the muscles that determine the stride length, most likely the hip flexors, so that the leg doesn't swing forward that easily. When the hip flexors get tired and tight, they pull the pelvis into a slightly rotated position so that it impedes the swing and thus shortens the stride length. Do you feel a tendency to lean forward slightly in the final stages of a marathon? I see that frequently in runners past mile 20 and it is one reason why people slow down, besides the obvious others: exhaustion and fuel management.
If that's the case, Canute is right and plyometrics are an effective way to strengthen the hip flexors, as well as hip flexor stretches, static and dynamic.
|
