Mar 2018
8:56am, 26 Mar 2018
2,734 posts
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Ninky Nonk
Quads are probably tight because your hip flexor are weak/inactive. Quads compensate for weak hip flexor to assist in raising the knee. This is more noticeable on long run when you're fatigued.
I expect your adductors are tight too.
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Mar 2018
9:09am, 26 Mar 2018
1,858 posts
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Canute
SPR and Brunski, those links to JK's writing are great.
I have a great sympathy with JK’s approach in almost all respects. One of our few differences is that I place at least as much value on high intensity training as on threshold training. Nonetheless, I strongly agree with him that determining training zones by measurements such as HR is a crude approximation to the estimate of effort that really matters.
I strongly agree with JK on the importance of running by ‘feel’ – though I do not consider that ‘feel’ is an art that contradicts science. It is an art that is consistent with a truly scientific approach. The scientific evidence indicates that variables such as HR only provide a crude approximation to the level of stress, and hence, to the balance between benefit and harm, of a training session. A training session must be stressful enough to stimulate growth but not so stressful as to stunt growth.
If HR is only a crude approximation what can we use to guide us? The effort of breathing is probably more helpful than HR, but it is only part of the overall sensation of effort. Our non-conscious brain is capable of far more subtle estimate of effort than we give it credit for. But it can only achieve this if we allow it to develop that ability. Like JK, I believe that the best way, perhaps the only way, is via a lot of running, built up gradually over a period of years. Nonetheless we can help develop confidence in our non-conscious brain by the way we frame our conscious description of our experiences. That is why I favour words such as ‘effort’ in preference to ‘pain’, and in particular, why I emphasize the importance of being open to the experience of exhilaration. An effective progressive run is exhilarating.
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Mar 2018
9:20am, 26 Mar 2018
849 posts
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SailorSteve
Nicely put Canute. Your last line chimes with me completely.
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Mar 2018
11:21am, 26 Mar 2018
25,774 posts
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SPR
Agree Canute. My watch records my training, it doesn't guide it.
Regards words, I do the same with hard Vs fast.
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Mar 2018
12:26pm, 26 Mar 2018
12,472 posts
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Chrisull
NN - you guess right, adductors are always tight too. I'd say hip flexors are week as thet are for most runners who haven't worked at them. So yes I will need to put some focused work in on hip flexors too.
Brunski/Canute - fast forward to page 292 of JK's writing, lots of interesting stuff on the training differences a 40 yr old + runner should be doing. Gonna keep me occupied a long time that article/book!
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Mar 2018
3:47pm, 26 Mar 2018
907 posts
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Brunski
Yes I remember reading that Chris and thinking it's definitely something I'm going to go back to after the marathon. I think I broadly train in short blocks of hard and then easy efforts, but rarely take a rest day. For me a rest day is a 40 minute run at 65-70% HR.
I'm going to read it again, I think there's so much to learn about running and JK is definitely someone I'm prepared to listen to 👍
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Mar 2018
1:19pm, 28 Mar 2018
12,475 posts
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Chrisull
Ok - 3 days on, quads are still sore. After a marathon (13 now), they've only ever been like this after London. So this is strange (especially for a 20 miler).
The wisdom seems to be either 1) as NN suggests - weak hip flexors (or core) mean I end up going on to my quads way too early and banging them into the ground 2) overstriding ? (I don't think I do this but possible?) or I'm now thinking possibly 3) compensation possibly.
I looked at some hip flexor exercises, and I do quite a few of these and the glutes stuff anyway. So given that I integrated a new strengthening program since December, specifically on glutes, hamstrings, with some follow through to quads/hips. So the question would be why if I focused on the very things that should help with that, should I be plagued with quads being so sore, and yet not say in 2016 where I wasn't doing the strengthwork?
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Mar 2018
1:54pm, 28 Mar 2018
1,101 posts
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J2R
I'd be interested in finding out what works for you, Chrisull. My quads were trashed, too, after the 20 miler, and were very sore the last 2 days, although a bit better today. I've started doing clams and side-lying leg lifts to strengthen my gluteus medius muscles, in case I'm over-using my quads in compensation, as NN suggested. Mind you, my quads were already sore before I started the race, so it may just be excessive load on tired legs.
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Mar 2018
1:56pm, 28 Mar 2018
25,797 posts
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SPR
What were you actually doing Chris?
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Mar 2018
2:30pm, 28 Mar 2018
2,735 posts
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Ninky Nonk
You've probably both overdone it a bit. If you're not recovering you probably need to drop mileage and be running very easy. Give the weights a rest for a bit. Up the stretching/yoga, get plenty of sleep, drink plenty of fluids, eat well and plenty.
Give your muscles time to recover.
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