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The vaporfly thread

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Velociraptor Jul 2024 6:13pm, 12 Jul 2024 69,850 posts	0 Velociraptor J2R wrote:Has anyone found distinct benefits from these shoes in terms of recovery from training sessions? That's often talked about elsewhere, but I don't recall much about it here (and am reluctant to go through 436 pages!). Clearly the requirements are somewhat different for shoes for training, and out-and-out performance isn't important, but it seems that the Pebax foam can help you avoid trashing your legs so much, as well as help you run faster. I'm wondering whether it might be time to spring for something like the Asic Superblast, but just for this purpose, not for racing. There has been talk on here from time to time about the theoretical improvement in recovery/reduced trashing of the legs in supershoes. For me, I don't think they've made any difference. The only thing that seems to influence how quickly I recover from a race or a hard session is how well prepared I am going into it.
J2R Jul 2024 6:17pm, 12 Jul 2024 5,450 posts	0 J2R I saw an amusing little article the other day saying something I can't argue with: "A new report has determined that the best way for runners to achieve and maintain fitness and to recover quickly from hard efforts is to be 20 years old."
SPR Jul 2024 6:22pm, 12 Jul 2024 45,159 posts	0 SPR There's a Doctors of Running podcast with the guy that did the 4% study and he says he does lots of his training in supershoes and said elite do lots as well. He thought you could just train in supershoes you race in but obviously if super trainers save you money it makes sense. Not sure if they referred to leg saving but it was implied. I think there's enough evidence anecdotally that they can save legs but maybe not every shoe in every condition. Can't remember if there's specific research out there though.
SPR Jul 2024 6:24pm, 12 Jul 2024 45,160 posts	0 SPR I feel like my Takumi Sen 9 generally helped my legs stay fresher on my EIM 1000s, it's why yesterday was so surprising and it was from the start of the run.
SPR Jul 2024 6:27pm, 12 Jul 2024 45,161 posts	0 SPR Velociraptor wrote:There has been talk on here from time to time about the theoretical improvement in recovery/reduced trashing of the legs in supershoes. For me, I don't think they've made any difference. The only thing that seems to influence how quickly I recover from a race or a hard session is how well prepared I am going into it. Interesting. Have you used them in moderate training and not felt any recovery benefit there as well? Presume you feel some speed benefit.
SPR Jul 2024 6:31pm, 12 Jul 2024 45,162 posts	0 SPR I asked Alex Hutchinson about the pilot study he highlighted a year or two back and it looks like it's been completed. Reminder that it showed a bigger improvement in economy for sessions in racing flats Vs VFs, but people that trained in a shoe got a bigger benefit in the shoe and those that trained in flats reported more soreness. sites.google.com
SPR Jul 2024 6:38pm, 12 Jul 2024 45,163 posts	0 SPR A section in the srudy related to @J2R's question. Formatting on the below may not be great. 2.6. Why Did AFT Become so Popular for Regular Use? While AFT first gained notoriety for its role in record-breaking performances, runners quickly noticed benefits outside of improved metabolic efficiency on race day. With AFT costing anywhere from $200-$500, many runners planned on conservatively using these shoes to maximize their usefulness in races. On the other hand, runners report anecdotal evidence of decreased muscular soreness, fatigue, and less “beat up legs” after using AFT in races. This phenomena, supported by evidence from Castellanos-Salamanca et al. (2023), explains the widespread use of AFT for running workouts, long runs, and even easy runs, which is surprising given the monetary investment and low durability of many models. The perceived “recovery” benefits of AFT have created new norms of runners regularly using these shoes for workouts to recover faster, run a higher volume, at a higher intensity, or more frequently, as seen with the recent popularity of double threshold training. In recent years, we have also seen standard training shoes that utilize technology from AFT, including a midsole plate, aggressive rocker geometry, and/or resilient, compliant foam (examples include the Nike Invincible, Saucony Kinvara Pro, Brooks Hyperion Max, and Adidas Adizero SL, ASICS Novablast). To date, few studies have directly demonstrated the acute recovery benefits of AFT, but over the course of a fatiguing interval session, data suggests that AFT does enhance recovery. Castellanos-Salamanca et al. (2023) had runners complete two sessions of five 1000 meter repeats (90 seconds rest), once in VP and once in their own control shoe, and measured countermovement jump (CMJ) height, interval performance (time), and pre- and post-workout perceived muscular pain. Their data shows that VP improved interval performance, decreased neuromuscular fatigue as measured by CMJ, and experienced less muscular pain (Castellanos-Salamanca et al., 2023). This suggests that runners who use VP in training may experience recovery benefits that allow for an increase in training load. Work from Black et al. (2022) suggests that AFT significantly improves ME both before and after the accumulation of muscle damage after a fatiguing protocol, though limitations in study design make it difficult to determine if AFT decreases the amount of muscular damage accumulated during the downhill running protocol used. Additionally, the carbon-fiber plate in AFT may play a role in delaying the onset of fatigue, and the associated redistribution of lower extremity joint work distally to proximally, as detailed by Cigoja et al. (2022). Taken together, these findings suggest runners may be gravitating towards AFT use in regular workouts because of the shoe’s ability to decrease muscular soreness, decrease and/or delay neuromuscular fatigue, and maintain or improve interval performance from the beginning to the end of an arduous training workout
J2R Jul 2024 6:50pm, 12 Jul 2024 5,452 posts	0 J2R That's very interesting, SPR. Makes me think I should maybe be doing more of my hard sessions in my Saucony Endorphin Speeds (although they're probably firmer than many of the other shoes mentioned).
SPR Jul 2024 6:58pm, 12 Jul 2024 45,166 posts	0 SPR Yes J2R, it feels like the Takumi Sen 9 and the Endorphin Speed may be resilient (AKA bouncy) but not compliant (AKA soft) enough for stuff on knackered legs based on the reports from you, me and Vrap.
J2R Jul 2024 7:10pm, 12 Jul 2024 5,453 posts	0 J2R Hmm, I wonder whether some Superblasts are in order. If they would allow me to train a little more without my legs getting beaten up, that might actually be as worthwhile for my race performance as the latest race supershoes.

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