The Sub 3:15 Marathon Thread
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334 watchers
Nov 2023
5:50pm, 23 Nov 2023
43,305 posts
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SPR
tipsku I don't think the workout makes much sense TBH and what the daily suggestions come up with is much more sensible. Strides/ sprints should be off much longer recovery. Putting a 44 min 10k into McMillan, that 5:25-45 is faster that 800 pace to faster than 1000 pace. Those aren't paces I'd be expecting a runner to hold for 1 min with 1 min recovery especially a runner aiming for 10km. Those are paces I'd expect to be targets for short strides/ sprints (again similar to what daily suggestions comes up with for you). What's the Garmin plan? Are you able to review the whole plan? Would be good if it was viewable online. |
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Nov 2023
6:48pm, 23 Nov 2023
43,306 posts
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SPR
tipsku you may have seen this already but having had a look at Garmin, I presume you're following a McMillan plan. These are the training plan guidelines for McMillan and the setup for your session in terms of effort and recovery length is clearly in the speed section rather than sprint or stride section, something has just gone awry with the pace. mcmillanrunning.com |
Nov 2023
9:30pm, 23 Nov 2023
3,569 posts
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tipsku
Thank you for your collective input, Oscar, larkim and Daz Love. You confirm what I thought. It's too long for that pace given my level. That's why I decided to cut the efforts short around the 30-40 second mark so that I would finish with good form and fast cadence. I am going at 200+ there but 220 is still looking a bit daunting. The stride sessions doesn't have a pace goal, only fast leg turnover. I can hit sub 5 pace but only for all out 15 second sprints. Best effort there is a 4:32 which was almost 100 m. I think SPR gave me some valuable tips how to make the most out of that session. I used to jog the 3 minutes but I found that when I walked them, I could run faster. I didn't break the 5:00 barrier before but after walking, I was fresher. |
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Nov 2023
9:43pm, 23 Nov 2023
3,570 posts
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tipsku
SPR, thank you very much for your detailed answer and the link to the plan. Yes, I follow McMillan on Garmin as it makes the most sense to me (usually). I have tried Amy, too, but the plan went sideways after about halfway. After my second mile time trial that was a tad faster than the first about 3 weeks earlier, it suddenly gave me slower tempo runs and goal pace repeats. I can't explain that one, I get faster but my paces get slower. So I went with Greg McMillan and for the most part, I enjoy the plan, except the crazy speed session but I'll simply tailor that to my needs. I haven't seen that workout description before so that's news to me. When I scroll down to the Speed section, I see that he has two different definitions there, speed and sprint. Speed is the VO2 max session where you have equal time in the effort vs recovery or about half the distance which worked out for me, about 250-260 m per effort with around 130-170 m recovery jogs. In the sprint section, however, he says that you should have longer recoveries for the sprints, 2-5 times the duration of the sprint, so the 1 min / 1 min is not as intended by the original McMillan plan. 1 min with 3-4 min recovery would be better. I can only guess what happened here; maybe something was lost in translation from McMillan's notes to the programming by Garmin. I can tweak it a bit by hitting the lap button early and apparently, I don't get told off by the plan for doing that. Still got a 'Well done' for the session. |
Nov 2023
8:22am, 24 Nov 2023
3,090 posts
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Big_G
Nothing revolutionary in what I’m about to post but I thought I’d share it. My club had a session with a sports and science coach last night, and it was good and well attended by Trotters - I think there were about 25 there. Basically, one of our club used him to train for an Ironman and she did well, has ran sub-3s in the past etc. He was a really nice chap, comes from the science and research background, and basically has a lab where he can do lactate threshold tests and VO2 Max tests. To be totally honest, it wasn’t anything revolutionary for myself, but it was a good talk. He’s given the club a discount to get the tests done but I can’t see me taking up his offer at this point, mainly as I’m injured. Although I presume he’s hoping he gets people signup, he wasn’t pushy, and actually gave advice for people to estiamte their zones if they don’t want the test. Nothing new for people on this thread really I don’t think, but I’m glad I went. He did say that, for him, knowing VO2 Max isn’t as important, as it’s difficult to train, whereas lactate can be trained more easily. He does do the VO2 Max tests there if peoples really want them, but his focus was on lactate. One interesting thing that came out for coaches in my club. He said when he had South West Road Runners in, who use a track a lot, he thought it wouldn’t go down too well, but he said rather than doing, say, 400m reps, to base the reps on time instead. Reason being that for the faster runners it can be, say, 80sec at the ‘correct’ effort, but for other runners it could be 2mins, as an example, so they’re working different systems and not really doing the same sessions. His advice was to do the sessions based on time, although he acknowledged it needs to be thought about logistically, because people end up scattered all over the track. Makes sense and again I suppose nothing revolutionary, but I saw a few pennies dropping with our coaches that were there. |
Nov 2023
8:41am, 24 Nov 2023
15,959 posts
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jda
Our club always does timed intervals for that reason, often reversing direction for out-and-backs. Which may be difficult on a track if others are sharing it  A loud whistle is useful for the start and stop! |
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Nov 2023
10:38am, 24 Nov 2023
43,307 posts
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SPR
The different systems trained may be appropriate though. Lots of track training is about the distance and if a 10k for example uses a different system from one runner to another based on how long it takes, then it makes sense that sessions do as well.
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Nov 2023
10:52am, 24 Nov 2023
3,092 posts
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Big_G
Fair enough. I don’t run on a track, but he was saying if person a) is doing a faster time at a set distance, at a potentially easier effort and person b) is slower but working harder and taking longer, then a) and b) are doing different sessions. If the aim is that people in the group are doing the same session, then time may be more appropriate. I’m just relaying what he was saying as it made sense to me - I’m not an expert.
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Nov 2023
11:15am, 24 Nov 2023
43,309 posts
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SPR
I'm just saying different sessions from a physiological point of view isn't necessarily an issue and is the same session from a race targeting point of view. It's not a right or wrong thing, it's just a case of different things might be a appropriate at different points. If training for a 5k, everyone doing 5 x 1000 at 5k effort may be appropriate vs slower runners only doing 5 x 500 for example because the session is based on time. The slower runners aren't getting the volume at race pace. The working harder but will likely come down to have correct guidelines for the session, if pace and recovery are correct, the slower runner will be running for longer but not working harder. Basically it depends what the goal is. If it's just everyone work on threshold, then time is 100% appropriate but in a group of runners that have a wide range of abilities while threshold will be useful for all distances it's a different race pace (based on it being the pace you can hold for an hour). So for me around threshold would be great for 10-HM training specifically but for a slower runner it's 10k. We generally start together at track and break up into groups around the same pace. I have noticed that sometimes a significantly slower runner gets dropped way behind and then they don't get enough recovery if they want to start with the slowest group in front of them. Regardless of zones etc, it might be best for them to work to time there. |
Nov 2023
11:17am, 24 Nov 2023
22,690 posts
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larkim
I think that point about different systems in use for different speeds is often massively overlooked, or at least is a big area for confusion for many runners. So much of the literature out there is built from coaching experiences amongst runners of paces which are in the top 10-20%, and then when runners at different parts of that spectrum come to read the books or follow the methodology it must fall away somewhat. Basics are basics, and I'd suspect that those on this thread in the main are in the fortunate position of being quick enough to fall into the zones where the fundamentals of those books / coaches still holds true. But particularly when things get longer, it does need adapting quite a lot. e.g. a marathoner who has a 10k PB of 60 minutes who is asked to do a tempo run of 7 miles by P&D at their 10k-HM pace will be doing a very different timed effort to a 10k PB 40 minute runner. At well over an hour, that wouldn't actually be a tempo for the first runner, and could therefore be stressing the wrong systems, or failing to stress the right systems. |
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