The Sub 3:15 Marathon Thread
336 watchers
Oct 2017
4:02pm, 10 Oct 2017
27,634 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
JB - as I said before, much awe at attempting anything close to low 3:xx at Snowdon. It's a flipping mountain for flip's sake! Very best of luck. I don't think I've run too conservatively in the past. I've had some slow downs and mega pain at end of my marathon PB attempts. But I've always set a goal that was "just" achievable, and then stuck rigidly to the goal. I agree I might have got "lucky" that things fell into place, but as someone said, "the harder I practice [and in my case I'd say the more detailed analysis and planning I do] the luckier I get!" Feel free to read my 2010 Lochaber blog of pain, my 2011 Newcastle blog of struggle, my 2012 Loch Ness blog of near death etc! So, FR, specifically, how do I know (as jda said above =/- 10s ) my target MP. 1. MP - I did 3 decent, long MP runs around 7:15 and knew 7:15-7:20 was doable. 7:00s wasn't. 7:30 would be taking it too easy. 2. Test races - I managed some OK 5K, 10K and half times (not predictors of marathon pace, but good measures of my own fitness and pace) 3. Believe in the training - I had done decent mileage, enough 20 milers etc. to believe I had adequate speed endurance. 4. Body watch - again, experience of my own body, I knew I had no significant niggles and therefore, barring some acute accident befalling me on the day. Conclusion - target 7:20s, measure myself through initial miles, at 10 miles, half way, 15, 18 miles. Thereafter, either push on or hang on!!  G
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Oct 2017
4:15pm, 10 Oct 2017
3,016 posts
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larkim
@WW - 3s out, tish, with that alternative calc. I'll let you take some genuine credit for that coaching though - honestly, if your predictor had come back and said 3:11 I'd have cracked on ahead of the 3:15 pacers from the gun. As it was more circumspect, that guided me and definitely contributed to hitting it right on the day. I've tried to do some playing around with the pace per km predictor tool that I posted on here a few weeks back to compare my outcome with the 3:14 "plan" that it proposed. Essentially I was up compared to that plan by 21km (plan had 1:36:13 for 21km, I was approx 1:35:46) and I dropped to 29s behind by the end. It does seem to bear out my theory that compared to the idealised runner I am worse at downhills. Or at least, worse than their model expects. In 21 of the "down hill" km in Chester, I was faster than the model in 4 of them, slower in 17 of them. In the 21 "up hill" km I was faster than the model in 12, slower in 9. In the second half of the race I was faster per km in 7 of the km, slower in 14, and in the first half of the race I was faster in 9, slower in 13. None of it proves that their model works or doesn't work, but it was fun playing with the spreadsheet! |
Oct 2017
4:25pm, 10 Oct 2017
25 posts
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John Bach
HG - I don't think Snowdonia as a course is much (if any) slower than an undulating marathon like Windermere - the event goes around Snowdonia rather than up it. For those that haven't done it there are basically 3 climbs - the 1st (about 800ft) after about 2 miles goes on for about 2.5 miles; the 2nd (about 400ft) at half way goes on for about 2 miles; the last (about 750ft) at about 22 miles in goes on for about 2.5 miles. I've never really followed a plan as such - I used to always try and do at least 4 20 milers. Also, for every other long run I'd try and throw in about 5 or 6 miles at target marathon pace in the 2nd half of the run. I'd also try and do a mid-week run of 6-8 miles at target marathon pace |
Oct 2017
4:26pm, 10 Oct 2017
33 posts
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AJLB
I blink and the thread has moved on half a dozen pages! Re. downhills, I've trained and raced to go full-out down them, and at Chester was catching people on them as well us uphills towards the end. Mind you, I'm pretty light (under 10st and 5'10"), and it's been a conscious effort - I used to really ease of for fear of slipping/trashing quads....
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Oct 2017
4:37pm, 10 Oct 2017
27,635 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Oh, I thought it was like the Ben Nevis race up here. Up and down? Well, good luck anyway, it still sounds like a tough one. AJLB, I agree, can def train for hills and it's downhills that need the specific training. Basically quad strengthening by thrashing downhills hard in training. An ultra friend of mine and Fenners' advocates it for the undulating ultras. He basically runs up Ben Lomond and down again as reps. Easy up, hard down. Ouch! larkim, those up and down kms must be difficult to track though, because you can be 0.2 mile out = 300m = nearly half your km is in the wrong km! Anyhoo, still fun playing with the numbers! G
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Oct 2017
4:42pm, 10 Oct 2017
27,636 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Ben Nevis race is only 14km though. My mistake. 1400m climb in 7km though! bennevisrace.co.uk G
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Oct 2017
5:02pm, 10 Oct 2017
3,017 posts
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larkim
Yep HG - conscious that it's not a precise science. I measured 26.33m so there's at least 0.11 error in there, but I suspect it accumulates over the race distance fairly evenly (maybe, maybe not). But just something interesting to look at - and as it correlates with what I was describing earlier (before I'd looked at the numbers) I'm taking it as some sort of validation that I am, indeed, crap at running down hill, especially when tired. Though I could equally look at it and say either a) I'm good at going up hills or b) I'm too aggressive at going up hills.
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Oct 2017
5:09pm, 10 Oct 2017
26 posts
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John Bach
There is a trail marathon which takes in the submit of Snowdonia - it has been going for about 3 years - I think it takes place in July. The Snowdonia marathon has been going for 35 years I think - the course has changed slightly over the years. The 1st downhill (approx 800ft) from the top of the Llanberis Pass goes on for about 3.5 miles - it is a good opportunity to pick up some places/time as some runners take it too gingerly - for me it's a case of leaning forward a bit, lengthening the stride and letting gravity be my friend! One problem with part of this descent is there is a 1 mile off road section which can be a bit treacherous in the wet and you need to keep your wits about you!
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Oct 2017
5:19pm, 10 Oct 2017
13,744 posts
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Fenland (Fenners) Runner
JB, Snowdonia is (IMHO) way harder than Windermere. Out of the 'hilly' road marathons I've completed I'd rate only Langdale as harder than Snowdonia.
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Oct 2017
5:33pm, 10 Oct 2017
27,638 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Larks, have you written a blog by the way? Have I missed it?! Keen to know how "close to the limit" you felt and at different points. e.g. super easy at start. Would you have pushed on harder had we not all been screaming at you to hold back?! Half way? 15, 18, 20 miles etc. If you had a personal pacer pushing you to 3:12, could you have gone quicker towards end etc? Look forward to reading it all... G
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