So who won the tour from 1999 to 2005
80 watchers
Dec 2017
8:34am, 19 Dec 2017
12,063 posts
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Chrisull
The allegations aren't baseless though. I'd agree there is no smoking gun, it is all just circumstantial. Here's another one I'd missed, the testosterone patches...sent to the wrong address... (dodgy but we have to accept their word) - but apparently the large quantities of triamcinolone went to the correct address: theguardian.com Sky promised zero tolerance. This is NOT zero tolerance. |
Dec 2017
8:51am, 19 Dec 2017
15,083 posts
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The Teaboy
I struggle to take any sportsman in any sport seriously. I've seen the façade tumble down far too quickly. I certainly don't buy the 'British don't cheat mentality' - so all those nasty Russians were doping but we finish ahead of them in the medal table based on nothing but marginal gains and good old pluck? Really? Actually, I'm pretty certain Obree was clean. The one that would break my heart would be if Boardman had doped. |
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Dec 2017
8:54am, 19 Dec 2017
15,084 posts
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The Teaboy
Sky also promised transparency. We saw sweet f all data from them since 2010. I don't see why athletes shouldn't publish their training/blood data if they want to be taken seriously. |
Dec 2017
9:01am, 19 Dec 2017
3,569 posts
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larkim
I think the Froome issue tells us precisely why we shouldn't get transparency - the media and the public don't know how to handle uncertain data. We don't need to see websites with blood values on for every competitor, we need to have confidence in the mechanisms that support rigourous testing and fair, valid outcomes in terms of sanctions (or lack thereof). If we get full details, all we'll get is the same old same old - website forums endlessly discussing why a value of x.x for athlete A should mean an immediate ban, based on misunderstandings of the data, the science, the medical stuff. I know that personally I'd *love* to see all the data - it would fascinate me. But I'm not qualified to make any judgements on it, so I know it really would be worthless. I need to know that UKAD / WADA / UKA / RUSADA / USATF / USADA etc etc know and see all the data, that they follow due process when something triggers their insight, and that there are mechanisms in place to ensure that there are no cover-ups. Then I need to know that the anti-doping bodies are well enough funded to keep them either ahead of, or at least closely in line with, advances in doping capabilities so that their testing provisions are suitably robust. |
Dec 2017
9:10am, 19 Dec 2017
62,336 posts
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Gobi
Obree quit because he was clean and refused to dope
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Dec 2017
12:21pm, 19 Dec 2017
12,067 posts
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Chrisull
Boardman was another who I'd say was clean - he's left all his samples for future testing and he quit to take drugs for his own health's sake (low testosterone). There were others that Armstrong bullied out of the sport too. On that note, I found this article on who would have won the Tours de Lance... you often have to go to 10th place or even 12th to find a probably clean rider: eurosport.co.uk Nardello, Zubeldia and Sastre seem to be the answers. Oh and I couldn't not share this handy cycle of suspicion wallchart: sportingintelligence.com |
Dec 2017
12:53pm, 19 Dec 2017
4,805 posts
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Dai Bank
Not seen the Eurosport list before; Daniele Nardello, who da thunk it. Hard on Sastre and Evans who could have also been multiple Tour winners. While I agree with Teaboy re: Boardman I think for me it would be someone like G testing positive would be the trigger for me binning my love of following pro cycling. All I hope is for some sort of resolution before the Grand Tours start. Having a Contador/clenbuterol issue overhanging 2018 Giro/Tour/Vuelta will surely be a disaster for cycling as a whole irrespective of Froome's personal position. |
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Dec 2017
4:29pm, 19 Dec 2017
12,069 posts
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Chrisull
Ah I note Cadel Evans contact with Ferrari was restricted to a fitness test, in 2001 when he was considering the change to road racing from mountain biking, and Ferrari advised him after the test that he could make the swap successfully. No other hint that Evans career was tarnished and his performances were noted by scientists such as Vayer as "human" (although they used Chris Horner's 2010 Tour as a baseline, and Horner's bio passport irregularities and doubts over the veracity of his 2013 Vuelta win, and persistent rumours that he was rider 15 whose name was redacted in the USADA report in Levi Lipheimer's affadavit make him not exactly the most sensible baseline).
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Dec 2017
7:54am, 20 Dec 2017
15,085 posts
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The Teaboy
I've seen somewhere evidence that Sastre was tainted. Basically as a rule I tend to rule out anyone Spanish or who rode on a Spanish team as being clean. Plenty of others I rule out as being clean too mind you...
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Dec 2017
9:46am, 20 Dec 2017
12,070 posts
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Chrisull
TB - Yes, Sastre was part of the Basso team and rode under Riis, so that alone is v.dodgy. HOWEVER he did have the nickname "Mr clean", and in one story given by an anonymous rider, he told Riis that he wouldn't blood dope. However he did manage to keep up with doped riders, when no-one else could, also he refused to confirm the blood doping refusal story himself saying it never happened (which if admitted would infer his knowledge of team doping), and there was a vague insinuation in that story that he was refused to "blood dope specifically" and that he might have been doping just other things.The other one was "Mr clean" could have been an ironic nickname. But, there was no specific evidence, there's quite a few forums speculating "he must have been surely?" but no evidence ever emerged (same with Cadel), so I'm happy to stick to "innocent til proven guilty" (for me a failed drugs test is guilty). Vayer chalked up his performances as "human" (as mentioned previously no guarantee). If you have the story otherwise, I'm happy to revise.
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