So who won the tour from 1999 to 2005
80 watchers
Dec 2017
4:31pm, 18 Dec 2017
12,058 posts
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Chrisull
Ok I will point further the line to: " Blood reinfusion is currently monitored with individual follow-up of hematological variables via the athlete biological passport, emphasis ****> which requires further improvement." So by their own admittance, it isn't perfect. Presumably, a knowledgable doctor in the area (such as Leinders) would be able to instruct an athlete on how at least muddy the waters enough to create reasonable doubt? Again I don't think he necessarily doped. BUT I do think an autologous blood transfusion now rates at least as likely as salbutamol being 200% the accepted level, from a "normal" dose, you're asking for a freak occurrence to be rated as more likely than a common occurrence as an accepted explanation of how. (Ok , it's been seen before, Ulissi, Petacchi, Piepoli, but not recreated). I also think there's probably a third possibility that it is being used to mask/distort/change some other variable. Finally I go back to context. This didn't happen in an innocent scenario. This happened the day after Nibali made serious inroads into Froome. In previous tours where similar turnarounds had happened (Landis, Vinokourov), were exposed in subsequent tests. If you take a look at the TDF winners/drugs test failures (or confessions list), on probability alone, the chance is he doped: en.wikipedia.org |
Dec 2017
4:41pm, 18 Dec 2017
3,563 posts
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larkim
Yes, but surely far more plausible is Froome's own account - he felt lousy on one day and discussed the asthma issue with his docs, they said up the dose, he did and it worked. That seems a perfectly plausible explanation which doesn't require any conspiracy theories or malfeasance. There's been no suggestion that he upped his dose for any other reason than he needed to because his performance was impaired by his asthma on stage 17. There are of course separate arguments about whether "improving" performance through taking a "drug" like that is or should be legitimate - presumably those with a different view to me think that asthmatics should be excluded from elite sports, I'm more sympathetic  - but under current rules you are allowed to medicate to resolve asthma. And in cases of someone like Froome I think it's fairly self evidence that we're not talking about taking ventolin puffs to stop a potentially fatal attack, we're talking about undoing some perhaps marginal impact of restricted airways which would be fine in day to day life but not when you're gulping in oxygen to climb a HC road in the Pyrenees. As I say, I think that's acceptable as the science broadly confirms that bringing your trachea back to "normal" size through use of salbutamol doesn't do anything other than restore the normality that everyone else benefits from.
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Dec 2017
4:44pm, 18 Dec 2017
12,059 posts
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Chrisull
Goes back, reads own link he posted, sees Cadel Evans was a client of Ferrari. Says I didn't know that. Adds another to the list. Delgado and Roche are now pretty much accepted as dopers (Kimmage's book Rough Ride throws a lot of dirt Roche's way). Plus I can't forgive Delgado for cheating Robert Millar (now Pippa York) for the scummy Vuelta incident at the level crossing - that cost Millar the Vuelta - the barriers came down, the train never came... Even Andy Schleck's brother Frank was a client of Fuentes... (which means nothing on its own) but he matched a doped up Contador, De Luca and Piepoli in the mountains. The only one I can find in recent times who is untainted was Sastre, who rode on Riis's team and reputedly refused the chance to dope -> "An unnamed rider from CSC's 2008 roster claimed that Riis had informed Carlos Sastre that he could blood dope and avoid detection by using small blood bags" cyclingnews.com |
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Dec 2017
5:03pm, 18 Dec 2017
12,060 posts
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Chrisull
larks - I don't think his own account is more plausible, no sorry. He said he felt lousy one day, most of us when we feel lousy our performance decreases by more than a few seconds on a killer climb. I point to Geraint Thomas who lost 10 minutes when he felt bad. You do make a good point about doping being legitimised, and although it feels uncomfortable, when the alternative is something like this: dailymail.co.uk You start saying where to draw the line...? And what worries me is when the former dopers like Rasmussen actually start coming over as more incisive and insightful (and dare I say more likable) commenters and social media users than the likes of Froome and Wiggins, then we have a problem: twitter.com Cycling author Herbie Sykes (I have some of his books) posted the following: "I'd invite anti-doping disciples (and I was once one myself) to list all the "clean" winners since Anquetil. Then all the deaths, trashed careers, good men destroyed, scandals, moral and existential crises. Then tell me that the current doping/anti-doping model benefits cycling." |
Dec 2017
6:09pm, 18 Dec 2017
62,322 posts
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Gobi
Twice the limit , just saying Others have been banned for less , just saying |
Dec 2017
6:22pm, 18 Dec 2017
25,408 posts
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SPR
I'm not fussed if Froome is banned. Regardless of how it happened, if he's at fault even accidentally, he probably should be ban. The this proves rampant doping line is what is ridiculous. There's obviously good reasons why this doesn't automatically lead to a ban. The blood doping stuff is pure speculation ATM. Certainly not been advanced anywhere 'official' and this is the first place I've seen it. |
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Dec 2017
6:42pm, 18 Dec 2017
62,327 posts
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Gobi
Points of view are potentially tainted by your view on Froome. I have always thought he was dirty. So i guess for me it is just where does it end. For a fan innocence and mistake . Nobody will be a winner |
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Dec 2017
6:54pm, 18 Dec 2017
3,564 posts
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larkim
Not twice the limit Gobi. Twice a threshold for further investigation. Subtly but importantly different. But you're right about preconceived views, I'm 100% prejudiced towards innocence and aware that colours my opinions. |
Dec 2017
7:07pm, 18 Dec 2017
12,251 posts
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Bazoaxe
If its nit performance enhancing, why do we have a limit Oh, and I am in the FRoome is good camp - I hope |
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Dec 2017
7:19pm, 18 Dec 2017
62,328 posts
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Gobi
You soind like the Sky press office Larks
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