So who won the tour from 1999 to 2005
80 watchers
Dec 2017
2:14pm, 21 Dec 2017
3,592 posts
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larkim
Chrisull - referring to your post 12050:- "Nellers - your last point has another possible explanation... not one I necessarily buy, but certainly well within the realms of possibility, blood doping - he had a blood transfusion of his own blood, and forget he had high levels of salbutamol from when he initially took his own blood. (Common mistake to make - see below). It would also coincide with the fact he used it after having a bad day. Typically riders concentration of red blood cells is depleted over a 3 week tour.Levels don't come back up until the rider can rest. So that's why it is considered so difficult for a rider after having a bad day, to suddenly have a good one... it doesn't exclude the possibility, but a rider having a bad day often goes on to have a lot more, and.... context here for me is all." See the paragraphs towards the bottom of this article which seems to me to be a doctor who is open minded (though I believe has something of an anti-Sky history) debunking any blood bag theories - cyclingtips.com "Former pro Joerg Jaksche suggested that if somebody used a blood bag, and had been using an inhaler at the time when the blood was taken out, that this could be carried over. Is this suggestion unfounded? I think that would be very, very unlikely. That would be within the grounds of science fiction, rather than a real scenario. You would have to have an absolutely massive dose of Ventolin the day he gave the blood. And then it would have to stay stable and not degrade over the period of time that it was being kept. It is off the wall, that, I think. |
Dec 2017
3:54pm, 21 Dec 2017
25,411 posts
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SPR
The thing is, it wasn't even proven in the Contador case, and the plasticiser test was never fully developed and put into use. WADA funded the initial trial but then declined to fund it any further.
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Dec 2017
3:54pm, 21 Dec 2017
12,077 posts
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Chrisull
larks - yep it is seeming now that, this is an unlikely explanation, which I'm happier about. I note this interview with anti-doping expert Tom Bassindale just suggests that what has happened is a bit unusual: velonews.com Most likely (according to this explanation) it's looking that Froome took salbutamol in tablet form on top of his inhaler that day. That is banned. The inhaler on its own explanation just doesn't seem to be able to cause the spikes needed in the urine output and would disappear from the system too quickly. So by the occam's razor, salbutamol tablet + ventolin - as the most likely way to cause that reading AND also as the best way to get over asthma problems quickly, and then face it down post race. |
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Dec 2017
4:00pm, 21 Dec 2017
12,078 posts
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Chrisull
SPR - yes, indeed as I mentioned before, it seems like there is no single foolproof method of testing for an analogous blood transfusion (as of last year anyway), and they just use the bio passport monitoring it seems. But I think it's safe to say it's off the table as an option. Looks like a straightforward.... Froome took ventolin and it spiked in a way not seen before in lab tests vs Froome took ventolin and a salbutamol tablet You pays your money, and you takes your choice. |
Dec 2017
4:01pm, 21 Dec 2017
37,328 posts
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While Raptor Knitted Socks by Night
I'm still wondering about nebulised salbutamol, which would still be administered by inhalation but would deliver a bigger dose and more systemic absorption than a hand held inhaler. But I suspect Chris Froome/Brailsford/someone else on the team would have been quick to offer this as a potential explanation if it were both a legitimate mode of administration and an accurate account of what happened. Oral administration of salbutamol gives such a poor trade-off between effectiveness and unpleasant side effects that it's no longer a standard treatment for asthma in the UK. |
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Dec 2017
4:09pm, 21 Dec 2017
12,080 posts
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Chrisull
V'rap - so that (from my limited knowledge) sounds feasible too. So you're saying not much point taking it in tablet form? So perhaps they had some sort of other non-standard/( or grey area) mechanism for delivery into the body that works more efficiently?? It is so strange, just to get it wrong like that. I note that salbutamol isn't even thought of as a masking agent, some people speculated it is because it appears (wrongly) under masking agents on some controlled substance lists. |
Dec 2017
4:17pm, 21 Dec 2017
6,395 posts
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Too Much Water
A lot of technical talk here about what can constitute doping / legal treatment. To the man on the street though pills, potions, transfusions, injections and inhalers are all dodgy. |
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Dec 2017
4:20pm, 21 Dec 2017
12,081 posts
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Chrisull
TMW - yep, and energy drinks would fall into that category too, given that caffeine was a banned performance enhancer for a while and might well end up in that category again.
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Dec 2017
4:22pm, 21 Dec 2017
37,329 posts
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While Raptor Knitted Socks by Night
There's very little point taking salbutamol in tablet form; it does "work" as a bronchodilator taken orally (we used to use salbutamol syrup for small children within my working lifetime, and oral salbutamol was standard before inhalers were available), but the dose has to be much higher to get the same benefit as the tiny doses delivered by a inhaler, and the trade-off is typically palpitations and a tremor.
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Dec 2017
4:23pm, 21 Dec 2017
3,596 posts
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larkim
Honestly, I can't see Froome being so stupid as to take a tablet which has minimal (if any) race performance enhancing effects (salbutamol tablets to aid weight loss in training seems to be the main performance enhancement claimed from that use) and which are clearly and expressly banned without a TUE "hoping" that his urine cleared the agent before an inevitable urine test either later that same day or the next. That part simply fails the occam's razor for me. He's just not that dumb. Similarly with nebulised salbutamol. It's well documented that taking it that way is highly likely to result in both an AAF for elevated levels and a potential for administering more than the legally allowed amount - "Nebulizers are not prohibited as a device; however the amount of beta-2-agonist administered by nebulisation may surpass the allowed maximum doses of salbutamol, salmeterol or formoterol by inhalation; therefore the dose may be prohibited." wada-ama.org One thing not discussed anywhere is whether Froome has had this situation before. At the moment we don't know (and I don't know whether this is likely or not), but its certainly plausible that Froome is so OK about this because he's done the PK tests before to demonstrate his personal response to taking a max dose. |
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