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Dec 2019
10:30am, 4 Dec 2019
9,673 posts
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larkim
That's the interesting trade off - is Corbyn an electoral asset *at all* for the Labour party? You could definitely argue that in 2017 he was, unexpectedly. I live in hope that that same unexpected effect happens this time around too.
He needs to remain an asset in those areas where he made the steps forward; and potentially sneak a few more. I appreciate that seems wildly unlikely, but it could happen - that 40000 or so votes that Chris is talking about etc.
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Dec 2019
10:42am, 4 Dec 2019
800 posts
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Roberto
I'm genuinely giving up hope now, for this election and for brexit. I'd place myself as middle class (even though I hate the whole concept of a class system) and I just cant see why the majority of people want to vote to make themselves worse off. Which is what all the evidence is pointing to regarding BoJos brexit plans. It's not project fear, or scaremongering, its actual evidence provided by experts from various international foundations. It is literally a path of self destruction and the slim majority are leading the rest of us down without a choice, despite the fact there is mountains of evidence now available that wasnt available at the first vote. And then to be so focused on just one issue at this election, brexit, is now going to enable all sorts of damaging and crippling actions to take place on other key issues that will continue to make the gulf of wealth bigger and for even more people to struggle. It's just demoralising seeing people do that to themselves and to others.
How can you be willing to vote for Bojo by saying Corbyn is toxic. It makes no sense. Bojo is racist and misogynistic and holds the general public in so much contempt by lying constantly but that's acceptable? Corbyn has flaws but line them up against Bojos flaws and theres only one winner.
I wanted to get into politics in the future so that I can help enact change that will help people, but seeing this and how much it's all just a game to so many of them, it's actually sickening. Unfortunately, I cant just switch off from it all, for the sake of the people I work with and the impacts it has on them as they dont have a voice in it yet, I have to keep hoping and working that it will be positive. But I'm struggling to see how that can happen right now.
(Sorry, think I needed to vent as have been discussing it at work)
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Dec 2019
11:12am, 4 Dec 2019
15,542 posts
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Chrisull
Corbyn may well still be an asset to younger voters - the reasons that people were originally drawn to him don't go away over night. However part of the problem is that this time anti-semitism is a big put off, and that makes a difference with the youth vote.
Labour have recently started fighting fire with fire, and found some good footage of Corbyn defending Jews against anti-semitism from 17 years ago, and he did finally apologise, but it's too little. And for me - the problem wasn't that Corbyn was anti-semitic, I don't believe he is, but that there are sections of the far left who are unapologetically so, and have allowed to hold positions in the Labour party, and have not been investigated or disciplined properly.
And also Labour's default position, should be "yes we believe you, yes we're sorry, yes we will investigate and do something" rather than "Look at 20+ years of fighting racism, we can't be anti-semitic, this is a smear". The latter is a very patronising and arrogant position to take.
But push comes to shove, a leader has to convince as a leader - by being decisive, strong etc (all that kind of stereotypical bullshit) and Miliband and Corbyn haven't. And it doesn't really matter what else because the general public vote for the PM first and party second the majority of the time, I'd say.
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Dec 2019
11:21am, 4 Dec 2019
9,674 posts
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larkim
On the anti-semitism point, I can understand why senior Labour figures adopt the patronising position that you describe - because they sincerely and honestly believe it applies to them. Admitting to something so abhorrent to them feels instinctively like a step too far.
Analogy - my grandmother would refer to people of colour as "darkies" and preferred to see a white doctor at her GP surgery. She was part of my family, and despite that one aspect of her personality I loved her very much. If it was put to me that my family had racist tendencies, I'd point to what I do, what others in my family do, etc that demonstrates our anti-racist credentials. I wouldn't instinctively adopt the mea culpa position on behalf of my whole extended family.
I think senior Labour leaders have the same view.
Not at all disagreeing with how that plays out though in the world of party politics etc - the mea culpa positon (combined with demonstrable actions) should be the default position.
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Dec 2019
11:31am, 4 Dec 2019
35,386 posts
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Nellers
I can see where people are identifying Corbyn in negative ways and not seeing him as a strong leader (although I disagree with them on that point).
What I can't see is how they then look at Johnson and think "Well there's a bloke with integrity who I'd trust and follow", which is apparently what people seem to be doing.
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Dec 2019
11:33am, 4 Dec 2019
35,387 posts
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Nellers
Also, and much as the apology is a good thing, I don't see too many instances of journos demanding Johnson apologise for the islamophobia, racism and homophobia that he (and a significant number of party members) have demonstrated consistently throughout.
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Dec 2019
11:38am, 4 Dec 2019
18,985 posts
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DeeGee
In 2017, Tory election material downplayed the "Conservatives", and went instead with "with Theresa May".
This time round they've identified the liability of clown prince dePfeffel, are barely mentioning "Conservatives" at all, and instead are going with "against Jeremy Corbyn".
That's the problem, they've managed, as the right wing always do, to identify an enemy that we "need" to work "against".
I've had two leaflets through from the Tories, each of them highlighting why I shouldn't vote Labour rather than highlighting why I should vote for them.
It's project fucking fear. Again.
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Dec 2019
11:45am, 4 Dec 2019
9,675 posts
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larkim
@Nellers - my point I've made before - it's not news when a Tory evidences racism, we expect it from them. The journos don't need to hold Johnson to account for that position because it is consistent with his broad outlook. It just reverberates around the echo chambers; grass roots Tories say "well, she does look like a letterbox, ha, ha, ha" whereas grass roots Labour say "outrageous racism".
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Dec 2019
11:56am, 4 Dec 2019
2,414 posts
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J2R
As has perhaps become clear, I despise Jeremy Corbyn. But I'd 1000 times rather have him as PM than Johnson.
Sadly, the election ploy has worked out well for the Conservatives, as I feared it would. Brexit as an issue has taken a bit more of a back seat, as the Conservatives and their supportive right-wing press have been making people more fearful of a Corbyn government than they are of Brexit.
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Dec 2019
12:00pm, 4 Dec 2019
35,388 posts
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Nellers
Oh, I get that larkim. The core right wing Tory support isn't going to be bothered by their leadership being racists because they are too.
The swing voters, though, are likely to be put off someone who is visibly and blatantly a raging fascist like Johnson, but unless you follow left-wing twitter and facebook accounts you're just not seeing that. It's there but it's not in anyone's face like the Corbyn stuff is.
And yes, it's project fear. It's uniting against a scapegoated "enemy". Strange, and somewhat disturbing, that the last time this was a big success in a major European country it was the Jews that were chosen as that scapegoat, and this time the same political position (or near enough) is using a perception of anti-Semitism in their chosen scapegoat as a stick to beat him with.
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Fantasy General Election
Jul 2024
