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Oct 2014
5:58pm, 28 Oct 2014
31,334 posts
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Velociraptor
Trailwalker was a formative part of my running apprenticeship  There's a part of me that would still like to go out there and have a pop at the women's record, but I tried and failed to put together a crack team for this year's event I could have asked around more widely, but there's no point collecting a quartet of people who may not function as a team.
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Oct 2014
5:59pm, 28 Oct 2014
31,335 posts
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Velociraptor
(I don't think I've ever run myself into a state of ketosis, though there have been occasions in the past where I've come home smelling of ammonia.)
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Oct 2014
7:21pm, 28 Oct 2014
1,111 posts
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Canute
Rosehip
I agree pretty well with Glenn’s recommendations for estimating when you are in the zone where the main fuel is fat. In fact when running I rely on respiratory effort to adjust pace. In my recent easy runs I have been breathing comfortably at 8 steps per breath, There is no sharp cut-off and I would probably still be largely burning fat at 6 steps per breath. On examining the HR record afterwards I find that my HR has typically been around 75% of max.
And as HG says you will actually lose weight faster at faster speeds, because energy consumption per minute is greater, but you achieve greater increase your capacity to burn fat and conserve glucose by training at easy paces.
With regard to the effect of increased fat in the diet on the development of fat burning enzymes, there are studies that show that effect, though the magnitude of the effect depends on several factors. I think that mild carb depletion during training (but not during racing) is a more effective way to increase fat burning.
Helegant, I am not sure that a reasonably fit person would produce much lactic acid during Trailwalker – except perhaps steep up-hills. However after Trailwalker your legs might feel shattered because of the microscopic trauma to your leg muscles. One of the other major adaptations required in training for marathons or ultras is developing the resilience to minimise trauma to the leg muscles.
Happy G, Hadd training as a lot in common with a polarised approach. However, I think the sub-LT sessions need to be approached with caution. These sessions have great potential for producing rapid gains in fitness, by increasing capacity to transport and re-utilise lactate. However, the stress on the legs at that pace is quite high and the cost/benefit ratio might be less favourable than for shorter, high intensity sessions. I therefore think that sub-lactate sessions should be used sparingly. However I accept that a marathon runner needs to develop the resilience to sustain sub-LT pace. Therefore I consider that sub-LT sessions have a part to play in marathon preparation – but only after gradual build up resilience. Hadd himself recommended starting sub-LT sessions after one could do 50 mpw comfortably.
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Oct 2014
8:54pm, 28 Oct 2014
190 posts
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nuttyficket
(what's the cause of that ammonia smell? I guessed it was either not eating enough or not drinking enough that caused it. Google never really gave me a satisfactory answer)
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Oct 2014
8:56pm, 28 Oct 2014
31,338 posts
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Velociraptor
I assume it's from catabolising amino acids to use the carbon skeletons as fuel.
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Oct 2014
8:58pm, 28 Oct 2014
191 posts
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nuttyficket
Right, thanks. Makes sense
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Nov 2014
7:23pm, 2 Nov 2014
1,116 posts
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Canute
Week 35 polarised training
Easy running: 428 min, 6:18 /Km, aHR 77%
Elliptical easy: 18 min
High intensity: 18 min. 3x6 min, peak HR 91%
Total 464 min ; 96.1 % easy, 3.9% high intensity
As anticipated, I was very busy at work during the past week, with little time for training during the week. I managed to fit in an easy one hour run and a high intensity session on the elliptical early in the week, and then ran an easy 2 hour run on each of Friday, Saturday and Sunday . I was disappointed to find that in the final few Km of Sunday’s run, my legs felt very tired and clunky. The goal of the present phase of training is to achieve sufficient resilience in my legs that I can cope with a daily 2 hour run without appreciable cumulative damage.
I think this might be the first time in my life that I had done 2 hour runs on three consecutive days, though in my youth I could cope easily with 2 one hour runs per day for many consecutive days with no cumulative tiredness. I have no expectation that I will ever achieve anything like the fitness of 45 year ago, but I am interested to see if I can achieve the same resilience at an equivalent easy pace.
Forty-five years ago, I found 6 min/mile (3:45 /km) very easy, and rarely ran slower than that. This week, my average pace was 6:18 /Km, so it is clear that I have regressed to a very pale shadow of my former self. However, I will persist with my goal of achieving the resilience to cope with multiple easy paced 2 hour runs without cumulative tiredness, for at least another month or so. If I do not succeed, perhaps I should focus on daily doubles.
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Nov 2014
11:45pm, 2 Nov 2014
391 posts
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Techthick
Canute.. If it took Ed Whitlock 6 years to build up his ability to run three x 3 hour runs... maybe it's an even slower build up is needed ? Looking back at weeks 32 & 33 it is obvious (imo) that there has been real development/adaptation based on when you started this a few wks earlier. It definitely seems to be working. I'm just wondering ... is it possible that a rest wk needs to be built into the cycle ?? also, sounds like the last couple of wks have been hectic at work so I don't know how much sleep you get in comparison to a 'normal' sleep week . That Fetch70 record will be yours
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Nov 2014
7:34pm, 3 Nov 2014
1,117 posts
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Canute
Teckthick
Thanks for your encouraging comment. I agree that I need to be patient. The question of how best to include rest in the schedule is important. There is a sense in which the past two weeks have been partial rest (insofar as the amount of running has been less) but sleep is a crucial part of rest and there has been no opportunity to catch-up on sleep. In general I regard tiredness and aching limbs as the best indicator of when I need to rest. After the tiredness and clunky legs yesterday, I am resting today. If the tiredness persists I will have a light week
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Nov 2014
8:22pm, 9 Nov 2014
1,121 posts
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Canute
Week 36 polarised training
Easy running: 470 min, 6:13 /Km, aHR 76%
Elliptical easy: 58 min
Threshold running: 20 min HR 86%
High intensity: 18 min. 3x6 min, peak HR 90%
Total 566 min: 93.3 % low intensity; 3.5% threshold; 3.2% high intensity
This week was less hectic at work, and I once again did 4x2 hour runs. As usual I aimed to keep respiratory rate at 8 steps per relaxed breath. On Tuesday, I was pleased to find that I was running a little faster at this breathing rate compared with recent weeks; my average pace was 5:57 min/Km. The ability to run faster at the some reparatory efforts confirms that my ability to utilise fat has improved. CO2 in the blood is the major stimulus to breathing. Since oxidation of fat produces less CO2 per unit of oxygen consumed, than oxidation of carbohydrate, the faster pace at a given respiratory effort implies a higher proportion of fat in the fuel mix, and greater conservation of glycogen.
However, there is a sting in the tail. A faster pace places more stress on the legs. The other major goal of my current program of multiple easy long runs each week is enhancing leg muscle resilience. About 95 minutes into Tuesdays run, I felt a few fibres give way in my left hip adductor. This muscle is my ‘miner’s canary’. I experienced a serious tear of the adductor during a HM race in 2009. Perhaps foolishly I continued to race, with a shortened stride and higher cadence. By the end, I had a garish bruise, marking the path of blood tracking from the torn muscle towards my knee. The injury cost me about 2 minute in that race, and has left me with a scarred muscle that tends to give way when I overdo things. On Tuesday, I immediately shortened stride and the pain settled to a dull ache so I decided to continue cautiously for the full 2 hours. I subsequently ran more cautiously for the remainder of the week.
By today (Sunday) there was only a scarcely perceptible intermittent ache in the adductor, so I think I have averted a significant injury. Selecting the best response to a minor injury requires luck as well as judgement, and I think I have been lucky. However, the episode is confirmation that my legs have not yet developed the required resilience to cope with an increased pace during 2 hour runs. As Techthick implied in his comment last week, I need to continue to be patient.
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