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Jul 2014
10:35am, 15 Jul 2014
1,021 posts
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Canute
Ceratonia
Hosaka is impressive and I think that both he an Ed illustrate the point that developing the ability to perform the same work out day after day without cumulative fatigue is the key. But I wonder if he is beginning to fade. He failed to get the M64 record last year. He also failed to get the M65 record at the Gold Coast marathon last week, though he plans to have another go at it in the Toronto Waterfront Marathon in November.
In an interview at the time last year’s Waterfront Marathon he admitted that he was struggling with the intensity of his program and was considering adopting Ed’s training approach – though maybe this was simply an expression of Japanese politeness while he was a guest in Ed’s home town.
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Jul 2014
1:09am, 16 Jul 2014
328 posts
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Techthick
Just read through the whole thread with avid interest, as I too want to get to a marathon this year in Oct. I've been running about 17/18 years . The initial years were great and my best marathon was around 3:20:00. Then I got hooked on the Furman Plan and as the years went by my aerobic ability got shot to pieces as I just did the 3 Hard sessions of the week (about 30/35mls) with no crosstraining. Okay it got me to a few more marathons ... but in hindsight I would not recommend it as a long term strategy. My last marathon was 2008 3:35:00 but since then a lot of injuries .
In early 2013 due to injuries I started doing most of my training as Run/walks. This has worked so well and I enjoy it so much that I have continued this strategy into 2014
To date this has enabled me to do 200mls a month since Jan...Injury free
8 half marathons and other shorter races
and a good chance of finally getting to another Marathon... Time will tell... Age 52
I am currently on wk 2 of Training plan from 'Boston Marathon' site advanced program and trying to mix it with 'Hadd HR wisdom.
Hope the health improves Canute and thanks for the thread.....
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Jul 2014
10:56pm, 16 Jul 2014
1,024 posts
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Canute
Techthik
I agree that the Furman program can be very successful in the short term, but is unlikely to be suitable for sustained use of a long period. As you imply, endurance is likely to decrease due to lack of volume. Extensive cross training might help alleviate this deficit, but I suspect that the continued stress three hard session, including a hard long run each week creates an additional risk of sustained build-up of cortisol that damages tissues.
I have been following your entries on the over-50’s thread in recent months and am impressed by how well you have been running since your period of run/walk training. I suspect this allowed your body to recover well. Good luck with your current program.
It is the effect of sustained stress that concerns me about Harada’s sustained intense program. He has performed very impressively during the period 2008 to 2012 (with world record times for ages 59, 60, 62 and 63) but as indicated in my response to Ceratonia, I think he will face a major difficulty in eventually overtaking Ed Whitlock’s records for ages ranging from 68 to 82 (and hopefully beyond). If Hosaka does overtake Ed, I will be full of respect, but meanwhile, I plan to model my training more closely on Ed than Harada.
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Jul 2014
10:59pm, 16 Jul 2014
10,582 posts
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GlennR
I got very good results doing the Parker advanced programme back in 2010 but I was a bit burnt out for a while afterwards, what with the combination of mileage, intensity and seven days per week.
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Jul 2014
12:17am, 17 Jul 2014
329 posts
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Techthick
Definitely with you in the Whitlock camp.(Canute) It is over 10 years since I could sustain regular 50mile weeks on a continuous basis. I'm back to believing there are no short cuts. I now believe a lot of enjoyable easy mileage with a little tempo and minimal interval intensity training lead to more long term (and more importantly, sustainable) improvement.
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Jul 2014
9:03am, 17 Jul 2014
1,408 posts
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Ceratonia
Strikes me that both Whitlock & Hosaka present their training plans in terms of "maintenance" i.e not slowing down/keeping what they have. That makes sense in terms of their age and previous achievements, but maybe a different way of approaching things compared to the majority? Most of us are looking to make _gains_ in fitness & speed?
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Jul 2014
10:40am, 17 Jul 2014
1,025 posts
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Canute
Ceratonia
For making short term gains almost any consistent program (eg Lydiard, Hadd, Furman, P&D etc) can work. Each person need to find what works best for them taking account of their own constitution and circumstances
The main claim for polarised training is that it is best strategy for achieving year-on-year development leading to your best possible life-time performance. For those of us who are definitely already over the hill, it is plausible that this approach will also minimise the rate of deterioration over a period of years.
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Jul 2014
3:10pm, 17 Jul 2014
234 posts
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tipsku
I agree with what you guys said about the Furman programme. I used it for one marathon to get up to speed (wanted to break 4h from a PB of 4.11) on a very tough work schedule - was working over-time for most of the training period so I did not have much time to spare.
Despite breaking the 4h very comfortably with 3.54, I realised that it was only a short term solution and that I would need more volume in order to progress as a runner and do that at slower paces. I've gone down to 3.37 in spring and the next target is sub 3.30. At the same time, 10k and HM PBs have also come down from 1.48 to 1.42 and 48.51 to 45.09. Train slower, race faster definitely works for me.
Thanks for sharing the information about Ed and his training. I found that very valuable as it validated what I do. I do most of my runs at MP+2 min so around 10-10:15 m/m (current MP would be around 8.10-15, trying to get that down to 8 m/m) and I find that very useful. I do a couple of races and a few speed sessions when I feel like it, usually in clusters of a couple of weeks when I do a lot of them, then I ease off and do mainly slow runs. I'm also aiming at getting up to 3x 2h runs per week with the aim of extending one or two of them to 2.30h and 3h.
For the past two weeks I had to ease off a little with persistent hay fever and a bit of a sniffle - bloody head cold. It allows me to run but I reduced the volume and also intensity. Nearly gone now so I'm looking forward to ramping up the volume next week.
Good luck with your training Canute and speedy recovery from your viral infection. These buggers are a nasty lot, hope you get rid of them completely.
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Jul 2014
1:14pm, 19 Jul 2014
1,028 posts
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Canute
The essence of polarised is a large amount of easy-paced running together with modest proportion of intense running. There are different approaches to polarised marathon training. Three common variants are:
1) Focus on a key long run: the key session is weekly long run, typically at approximately MP+1 min. Long run duration typically increases steadily over a period of 12-16 weeks, leading to several long runs of around 20 miles. In additional there is a weekly tempo and/or interval session, and three or more easy-paced short and medium length runs. This type of program is used by many recreational runners. If followed consistently it provides a good prospect of a satisfactory performance in the target race, and reasonable prospect of year-on-year improvement for several years. However I suspect this approach is unlikely to produce one’s best possible performance.
2) Key long run including MP: similar to the type 1 strategy described above but with inclusion of a substantial periods at MP within many of the long runs and some of the medium length runs Doubles might also be included. This approach is similar to the approach recommended by Renato Canova. Anecdotal evidence, including the outstanding success of Canova’s protégés suggests that this offers the a high prospect of excellent performance in the target event. The inclusion of a relatively substantial of proportion of sub-threshol d running is likely to result in greater stress levels (and resulting greater risk of sustained elevation of cortisol). It is necessary to ensure good recovery if there is to be year on year development.
3) The high volume approach: the key feature is multiple long runs each week, typically at quite slow pace such as MP+ 2 min, and a very small amount of high intensity running. This is the approach applied by Ed Whitlock, who aims to build up to multiple runs of 3 hours at approximately MP+2 min per week . The high intensity is provided by up to 40 races over distances of 1500m to 10K per year. The crucial feature is increasing the volume gradually. Ed has demonstrated that this can lead to world record performances and relatively limited deterioration over a period of years. However it is very time consuming and it is not clear that it would work for others.
My major goal is to minimise deterioration with age, but I am also eager to see if I can run at least one fairly good marathon before I become too decrepit. So I had started my current program aiming for a type 2 program (weekly long run including MP).
However, due to my recent illness, there is little hope of a ‘fairly good’ marathon this year, so I am inclined to convert to a high volume approach aiming for a good marathon next year and perhaps continuing onwards in this manner into old age. I know from recent years’ experience that I will need to build up volume very slowly. I will also be unable to find 15 hours per week for training, but maybe could find 11 or 12 hours.
My goal for the next 6 weeks is to see if I can build up to 4 or 5 runs of at least 2 hours duration without cumulative exhaustion.
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Jul 2014
1:28pm, 19 Jul 2014
10,621 posts
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GlennR
Canute, during my 2010 purple patch by far the biggest gains resulted from the long period (five or six months) of doing nothing but easy paced (sub 130 bpm) running every day and upping the distance over time. My twelve week polarisation period (standard 1 tempo day, 1 interval, 1 long run, 4 days easy running, increasing in duration and intensity across the weeks) *did* bring some additional improvement but it was quite minor by comparison - and I felt a lot more knackered.
I mention this taking into account your age and your own references to how long it takes you to recover after hard sessions. Do you not suspect that a focus on easy paced distance may not be a more productive route to your marathon goals?
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80/20
Jun 2019