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Apr 2020
11:28am, 26 Apr 2020
3,382 posts
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FenlandRunner
Canute, I have put together possibly my most consistent spell of 'training' ever. The vast majority 'easy' trail running with the addition of some hard sessions. No 'grey' middle of the road running at all.
I wish I'd listened to you (and people like Gobi) years ago.
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Apr 2020
11:38am, 26 Apr 2020
1,123 posts
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puzzler
That’s a really interesting training schedule by Bekele. To get my head round it I had to remind myself that his 5k and 10k pb pace ( both world records and set 15 years ago) were 2.34/km and 2.38 respectively and his run in Berlin was 2.53/km.
I don’t know what a ‘tempo’ run would mean for someone pushing themselves to run at that high a threshold. But it seems the only sessions where he hits his marathon race pace or a bit faster are where he does multiple short reps such as 20x500 or 30x1 min.
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Apr 2020
11:45am, 26 Apr 2020
3,384 posts
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FenlandRunner
I don't have any answers, just questions.
If pro-athletes only run at marathon pace during hard efforts, why do 'fun' runners almost run everything a MP or faster?
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Apr 2020
11:50am, 26 Apr 2020
12,327 posts
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Cerrertonia
Bekele's marathon pace is only a second or two slower than my 100m sprint pace and the difference between his 5k pace and his MP is only a few percent. While I do, in fact, do nearly all of my running slower than MP, I'm not sure it makes sense for me to take much guidance from how he trains.
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Apr 2020
4:16pm, 26 Apr 2020
2,214 posts
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Canute
Cerretonia
You might not be overtly guided by Bekele, but it is probable that you are implicitly guided by those who created the tradition that Bekele is maintaining.
When I started running in the 1950’s we acquired information about training a largely via rumours. In the mid 50’s the two prevalent rumours were that Bannister achieved his sub-4 minute mile by increasing his ability to maintain 4 min pace for increasingly longer periods (e.g. increasing 3 laps in 3 min to 4 laps at that pace); while a key feature of Landy’s training was running up sand hills. As a schoolboy miler, I used to focus on sand hill running. These ideas were up-ended by Lydiard. He emphasised that the key feature was building a base by running 100 miles a week. He also emphasized periodization, the fourth feature on Seilier’s hierarchy. Lydiard’s proteges, most notably Peter Snell, dominated middle and long distance running in the early 60’s. Although Snell set world records and won his Olympic golds at 800m and 1500m, he maintained that the endurance aspect of Lydiard's training was the primary factor in his success as a world-beating middle distance athlete.
Although I was probably about as distant from Snell and you are from Bekele, and furthermore, was always more committed to my studies than to running, I nonetheless became a sub 2:30 marathoner following Lydiard.
As I see it, Seiler has developed Lydiard’s ideas in light of the accumulated evidence about successful distance training in the subsequent 60 years. Bekele is a modern day illustration of Lydiard’s key principle that the cardinal component of training for distance running is a large volume of running at paces slower than race pace. Each individual needs to work out how that fits their circumstances.
Many of us simply take Lydiard’s ideas for granted. But I think it is worthwhile to keep in mind that our current training principles are based on a foundation that has been consolidated over the past 60 years.
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Apr 2020
4:59pm, 26 Apr 2020
1,124 posts
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puzzler
Cerrers, The lesson I draw is that Bekele has managed to raise his lactate threshold to a phenomenally high level. For people who have developed a good aerobic base the main improvement in race time is from shifting the lactate threshold. The big question is how to shift it - by running below LT and pushing it up or running above LT and pulling it up.
FR, I suspect for those runners the lack of aerobic base is the constraint on performance rather than the level of LT.
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Apr 2020
5:19pm, 26 Apr 2020
2,216 posts
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Canute
I agree that it is possible to push the LT up from below.
One plausible mechanism is developing the ability to transport of lactate out of fast twitch fibres into adjacent slow twitch fibres where it can be metabolised. In other words, you can employ effective fast twitch contraction without accumulating lactate. The foundation for this is developing the transport of lactate togehter with a high capacity for metabolism in slow twitch fibres, at relatively slow paces. By building up for the base you minimise high stresses.
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Apr 2020
6:19pm, 26 Apr 2020
3,386 posts
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FenlandRunner
Thanks, Canute and Puzzler. This is an exciting topic that really interests me. As an assistant coach I'd like to help others. Gaining knowledge is vital in that aim.
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Apr 2020
5:15pm, 27 Apr 2020
3,392 posts
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FenlandRunner
What are people's views on muscle recruitment in relation to running? And what order are muscles recruited?
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Apr 2020
5:39pm, 27 Apr 2020
69,295 posts
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Gobi
So as an ultra distance runner I read about Lyds and also Bannister/Stample(excuse spelling)
I ran 2.39 without taper and basically could tap out sub 2.45s every other week
Mileage peak was 131miles a weeks so about 210km and 19 weeks were avg 98 miles(just shy of 160kms)
My easy runs were way over 5mins perkm but I was also coaching track sprint and middle distance so doing maximals short reps.
I dont enjoy tempo running per say but would happily race a half /10k/5km with miles around them every week.
The big thing was the volume at appropriate intensity allowing recovery/build around raw aggressive speed work.
Really wish I had run 1 proper tapered marathon to see what I really could have done.
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80/20
Jun 2019