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Mar 2018
2:17pm, 19 Mar 2018
8,866 posts
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Garfield
Check out the Chi Running thread...it goes back to 2007.
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Mar 2018
2:37pm, 19 Mar 2018
34,413 posts
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GlennR
Ah, I was almost young then...
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Mar 2018
3:11pm, 19 Mar 2018
369 posts
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Claypole
2007 - jeepers, that was pre kids for me 
Yeah, (he says jumping into thread to avoid imminent work!), think all of us runners probably have a vested interest in running with minimal effort and wanting the best speedy feeling.
I think the leaning forward from the ankles thing can lead to feeling like we're not pushing back - but anyone tried just leaning forward at the ankles on a skateboard or roller skates?
Cue skateboard/feet go flying backwards and my kids laughing at me in my experience
On this basis, my thinking leads me to believe we lean forwards and push back at the same time...
Anyhoo, just trying to be aware of this stuff seems to help me reduce the aches and pains to a degree
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Mar 2018
5:51pm, 19 Mar 2018
20,351 posts
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eL Bee!
As an 'old man' of this thread - i shall observe
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Mar 2018
6:16pm, 19 Mar 2018
329 posts
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SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss)
There's always a push involved, we all feel it (and, because we're moving forward when we do, assume the push is the cause of forward propulsion), but the question is -is that push simply serving gravity -preventing us from collapsing into the ground, and also creating a rigid level over which our hips can rotate, or, is it propelling us forward?
Take a sweeping brush and stand it on its end with brush at the top. Imagine the brush is our hips and the handle is our leg. Now, let go and watch it arc over. Did the brush push itself with its muscles? No. Did the brush head drop straight down to the ground in the direction of gravity? No. What caused this movement then? Gravity-or more specifically, gravitational torque
Gravity doesn't change on what or when to impart its influence. The difference of course between us and the brush is that we have a brain and CNS to tell us to intervene or else we face-plant! So what do we do? we change our support so we can catch our balance and start the cycle again. Of course it's more involved than that -the hips are pushed vertically as we uncoil from a compressed spring (so we have room and time to change support) but this push is all serving gravity not propelling us forward.
Claypole. Feet go flying backwards on a skateboard because there is no fixed support. Fasten any equally heavy and rigid object to a skateboard and the same kind of thing would happen -no muscles involved
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Mar 2018
6:22pm, 19 Mar 2018
25,694 posts
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SPR
The original thread crashed under the strain, lol. I joined in 2008 and was mainly on this thread back then.
I agree lean determines direction of push, hence lean to accelerate, and almost upright at constant speed where vertical force is needed to get airborne, but only a little horizontal force is needed to overcome braking, air resistance.
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Mar 2018
6:33pm, 19 Mar 2018
330 posts
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SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss)
Running backwards is a great way to appreciate that, rather than pushing, only falling and pulling (foot) are involved. Try it
Anyway -nice to bring the debate back I suppose -this forum group has been dead for a while
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Mar 2018
6:35pm, 19 Mar 2018
372 posts
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Claypole
Interesting points SSLHP.
Not sure I entirely agree tbh but can see where you're coming from ☺
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Mar 2018
7:59pm, 19 Mar 2018
14,466 posts
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Fenners
Perhaps the 'only' thing that get's my goat is people looking for a silver bullet or some magic that makes them injury proof and faster.
In truth, any athlete needs to put the work in to achieve a percentage of their potential. The 'do' this and you will magically be amazing without any effort/work is BS.
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Mar 2018
9:51pm, 19 Mar 2018
1,836 posts
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Canute
I agree with Fenners that the most important thing to facilitate running well is doing a lot of running. Because of the way our bodies and brains are constructed, we generally get it pretty near to correct by practicing a lot, with one proviso. Build up gradually. I started running half a mile twice a day (to and from school) at age 4. I increased that to 2 miles twice a day at age 8. I think that stood me in good stead to running sub-2:30 marathons in my early 20’s, with scarcely any injury problems from injury.
However, a substantial number of runners do get injured, perhaps because they have not built up their running gradually over a period of several decades. For this reason I think it is useful to understand a bit about biomechanics so that we can adequately prepare ourselves for running.
One of the good things about Pose if that it provides some images that are useful for those recreational runners who are inclined to think that they need to push themselves forward from stance. The Pose concept of the fall does imply that there is no need for pushing oneself forward. This is a half-truth that can be helpful
However the real reason we do not need to push forward strongly once we have achieved constant velocity is that a body continues at a constant velocity without needing any further driving force, provided there are no forces pushing the body backward. This is Newton’s first law of motion. You do not need to invoke gravitational torque to account for the need for only a small horizontal push. (hGRF in technical language).
When we run there are actually two forces that tend to push us backwards (or at least impede forward progress): air drag, and the braking that occurs between footfall and the pose at mid-stance. Provided we do not spend too long on the ground the braking force is small and easily dealt with by the obliquely-angled push exerted by our leg in late stance. Similarly, except perhaps when running into a gale, the forward hGRF required to overcome air drag is much smaller than body weight.
In my view, one of the most misleading practical implication of the Pose preoccupation with the fall and pull is the failure to properly address the really large vertical force (vGRF) required. Even at moderate pace, this vertical push is substantially greater than body weight.
Whether we like it or not, running at anything faster than a shuffling pace does require a strong upward vGRF. This reaction force is generated as a reaction to the downwards force we exert through our legs. (That is Newton’s third law of motion). To prepare yourself adequately for running at moderate pace, you need to develop the strength to exert the required force. Body weight provides only a minor fraction of this force. Elastic recoil can provide a useful proportion, but capturing elastic energy requires eccentric contraction (i.e. contraction while being stretched). That is very stressful on muscles. You need to develop the strength of your muscles, tendons and ligaments to cope with this force.
That is why I believe that if you are your own coach and you want to run moderately fast without 20 years of gradual build up, it is important to have at least some understanding of biomechanics.
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