More efficient running style

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HappyG(rrr) Mar 2018 4:12pm, 20 Mar 2018 28,483 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) These are useful analogies SSLHP and useful visualisations. Doesn't change the physics. It's just the words that we are differing on, I think. One does push backwards, in order to go forwards. As well as pushing upwards, to avoid being in a heap on the ground! But we don't think "push backwards to go forwards". Any more than we think, "Resist gravity with a downward force to keep us from crumpling to the ground"! I actually had one Pose "lesson" with Boab, of this parish. I don't think he teaches Pose any more (I won't say if it's because he's been injured too much?! ) He's an awesome runner, intelligent bloke and very helpful running pal. And when I've been running best is when I have "felt" the Pose phases. But I just don't think it's got anything to do with the physics being different! G
SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss) Mar 2018 4:33pm, 20 Mar 2018 336 posts	0 SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss) HappyG It might not change the physics but it can change your actions, especially when you want to go faster -you'll do the wrong things. Actively pushing is not required and in fact hinders forward rotation. Sway forwards but stop yourself falling over...to do that you'll push into the ground with your forefoot. So pushing into the ground hinders falling and puts superfluous load on the calf/achilles
HappyG(rrr) Mar 2018 4:46pm, 20 Mar 2018 28,484 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) I'm afraid I don't get that SSLHP. I don't want to rotate forward. I want to move forward, parallel with the ground, as smoothly as possible. Neither rising high off the ground, nor lowering much closer to the ground (crawling?!) Probably this is where videos would serve better than words! G
simbil Mar 2018 5:14pm, 20 Mar 2018 7,650 posts	0 simbil I don't buy the theory on forward rotation - if there were forward rotation in the stance phase, runners would continue to rotate during the flight phase of the gait which does not look like it happens - runners get what HappyG wants - forward movement, not rotational movement. Rotational movement is also a problem as Canute pointed out a few pages back. Once it starts, it needs to be countered at some point. Surely more efficient just not to rotate in the first place as it is a zero sum game? ~ waves at SPR ~
SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss) Mar 2018 5:17pm, 20 Mar 2018 337 posts	0 SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss) Or this image might better explain: drive.google.com Anyway, let's leave it
SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss) Mar 2018 5:22pm, 20 Mar 2018 338 posts	0 SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss) simbil Your leg acts as a lever around which your hips rotate...whether you 'buy' it or not
simbil Mar 2018 6:56pm, 20 Mar 2018 7,651 posts	0 simbil Legs can do that for sure - that's exactly what happens when I face plant into bed after a couple of beers. Does it happen that way in constant speed running though? I don't think so for the reasons in my last post. I think your hips move past your foot as it pushes against the ground and the act of pushing balances the torque so that the runner is stable in the air and not rotating at all. This is instinctive and there is no need to focus on pushing or focus on not pushing. Rotation would be wasteful, creating it means you just have to counter it at some point. That's not efficient. Ironically though, I think Pose is spot on with the concept of the lean, just for the wrong reasons Leaning is a nice way to control acceleration to different paces. That plus focusing on minimal movements and a fast cadence makes Pose pretty good overall, it's just a shame about the pseudo-science backdrop.
Bazoaxe Mar 2018 7:03pm, 20 Mar 2018 12,703 posts	0 Bazoaxe Not sure why I monitor this thread as I just run however I run.
Canute Mar 2018 12:49am, 21 Mar 2018 1,839 posts	0 Canute It seems like old times again. I enjoyed those vigorous debates though there were a few unfortunate colourful explosions. In the end the Pose community formed their own thread. I never posted there because it was clear that it was a thread for believers. At the time there was plenty of evidence available elsewhere to allow anyone who wished to do so to make a rational judgement about the strengths and weaknesses of Pose. It seemed to me that in those circumstances, that whatever consenting adults chose to get up to in the privacy of their own thread was no business of mine. In contrast, this thread has always been more open to debate, and I have been happy to pitch in. I note that SSLHP has again raised the thorny question of the push. Pose theory denies the need for push. It describes the lift off from stance as a pull. In contrast, virtually all the available scientific evidence demonstrates that a push is in fact involved in the lift off from stance. So is there any value in the notion that there is no push? As I have remarked in recent comments, if Pose has any merit, it is in creating imagery that helps some athletes. In reality the push must be timed with millisecond accuracy, and only exceptional individuals can control the timing of the push with the required precision consciously. For most of us, it is better to let it occur automatically. Investing belief in the pull minimises the risk of an ill-time push, while at the same time creating the illusion that running is almost effortless; powered magically by gravity. For some this is a useful self-deception. It is of course dangerous if it leads the individual to under-estimate the actual need for strengthening of connective tissues. To give Dr Romanov due credit, he does advocate strengthening exercises and drills though I do not consider that all of those are good value for the time spent. My own view is that the best way to cultivate the sensation that running is a magical delight rather than a drudge, is to reframe the way we use words like pain and effort. In most circumstances, even quite fast running is more effortful than painful. If we cultivate the sense that effort is a satisfying experience rather than a chore, I do not think there is any need for self-deception. Furthermore focusing on a firm rhythmic arm action can create the sensation of running powerfully on light feet.
SPR Mar 2018 8:48am, 21 Mar 2018 25,706 posts	0 SPR I think of the push starting before landing (Glutes actively moving upper leg towards ground) In regards to the feeling of effort, I use this: When pain sets in during a hard, long workout, everyday runners, and even pretty good ones, often get wrapped up in it. They think to themselves, “Oh crap, this already hurts so much and I’ve got a long way to go.” These emotionally charged thoughts can lead to panic . Heart rates rise and muscles tense. As a result, both enjoyment and performance diminish. But for the best runners, like the ones that Steve coaches, it’s a different story . It’s not that elite runners don’t feel pain and discomfort during their hard workouts, it’s just that they react differently. Rather than panicking, they have in their minds what Steve calls a “calm conversation.” The calm conversation goes something like this: “This is starting to hurt now . It should. I’m running hard. But I am separate from this pain. It is going to be okay.” - Peak Performance, Brad Stulberg and Steve Magness