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Intervals at 5k pace - why 5k pace?

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rf_fozzy Aug 2019 7:43pm, 12 Aug 2019 8,988 posts	Quote Pin rf_fozzy Couldn't disagree with this more. " roughly 300m less is more aiming to race at 1500 or less 300m to 800 for 5k 500m to 1 mile for 10k/HM 1mile or more, if you feel you need to do them for mara." There is benefits from doing repetition training for all distances. Although I agree you'd do less than a track runner. As for intervals, you should be doing them over a range of distances, no matter what your target race distance, especially for marathons. Threshold intervals (~1mile) - these are the optional ones - you can do the same with a hard run. "I think I'd say never do more than 2 hard sessions a week, i.e. including hills, drills, and tempo runs." I'd also disagree with this in general. It depends on (a) experience of runner, (b) volume of training, (c) what you are training for, (d) where you are in your training cycle. Is the long run a session? Yes is the answer - I've been more drained at the end of some of my long runs than after an intervals session. So, that's already an intervals session, a tempo run and a long run = 3 'hard' sessions. In the end it comes down to what works for the particular athlete. Hence why I don't like the "do intervals at 5k pace" or "do x sessions" etc.
rf_fozzy Aug 2019 7:45pm, 12 Aug 2019 8,989 posts	Quote Pin rf_fozzy I find this calculator very useful. Plug a recent (adjusted if necessary) 5k/10k/HM time and it will tell you your training paces based on Vo2max runsmartproject.com
rf_fozzy Aug 2019 7:47pm, 12 Aug 2019 8,990 posts	Quote Pin rf_fozzy There are also descriptions of what repetition, threshold and interval training paces actually mean if you click on the "training" tab and then click on the little grey square next to the names.
Nellers Aug 2019 8:50pm, 12 Aug 2019 34,604 posts	Quote Pin Nellers I think it comes down to terminology a lot. SOme plans/methods have very specific meanings to the terms we use. For me the definitions are a bit broader, but still quite well defined. They don't particularly relate to the distance being covered. Intervals are any run which is broken down into smaller chunks with rests inbetween. They can be anaerobic or threshold or tempo or aerobic depending on the length of the effort and the relative length of the recovery. It's about using those recoeries to allow greater total duration at a given effort but still to accumulate some fatigue. Repetitions, for me, would be a specific type of intervals where the point is to repeat the same effort at the same pace so the recovery can vary, and could be significantly longer than the effort (eg. training for a mile you might do 400s or 800s with very long (several minutes) rest to ensure that you can do all of the efforts at better than the planned race pace). Intensity/pace would usually, but not always, be higher than in other intervals. Threshold pace is about running at as close to the Anaerobic threshold as possible. If you're doing that right you are going to get very fatigued fairly rapidly so it's probably easiest as a long interval session, with say half duration rests (4 minute effoert, 2 minute recovery). Doing a continuous threshold piece is going to be tough but a hard parkrun might fit the bill. Doing it on your own is going to be really hard. Tempo is aerobic, but top end aerobic. It's still a tough run but it's not flat out and it's not going to give you a lactate burn in the legs. It should be something you can do as a continuous piece but, again, might be easier to split it down so rather than doing an 8k threshold run maybe 2 x 4k or even 4 x 2k would work, but the recovery between those pieces shoudl be short (60-90 seconds) as you don't need to clear lactic acid from your legs. How many "hard" sessions you can do does very much depend on your experience and strength and resilience to the training load but I'd say starting with one or 2 and seeing how it goes is a good starting point. Injury risk in running is quite high with higher intensity. When I was canoeing it wasn't unusual to do 3 or 4 interval sessions of varying length/pace/intensity in a week but it's not an impact sport. The rowing plan I'm following right now gives me 3 sessions each week above "normal" pace. Physiologically that's not a problem for runners either as long as it doesn't lead to injury or undue fatigue. The key thing for me is really that there isn't a key thing. Progress is going to come from accumulating training effect over a significant length of time so that "killer session" really isn't going to make that much difference in the grand scheme of things if you only do it once in a blue moon because it's so "killer". And Slowby, be aware that I've never been as quick a runner as either of the other guys commenting and so in terms of running at that level I'm really not the expert, but endurance training is, for the most part, endurance training. The same principles apply whether it's running, cycling, rowing, swimming or whatever. Overload-recovery-overcompensate.
Badger Aug 2019 9:09pm, 12 Aug 2019 11,209 posts	Quote Pin Badger This whole thread is fascinating.
Autumnleaves Aug 2019 9:39pm, 12 Aug 2019 13,907 posts	Quote Pin Autumnleaves The key thing is there is no key thing - wise words. What suits one runner may be disastrous for others. There is a widespread belief amongst many coaches that most amateur runners do far too many 'hard sessions' and are reluctant to trust a less is more approach when it comes to the top end of effort and speed. It does depend on goals and objectives of course, and the time people have to train.
Nellers Aug 2019 9:46pm, 12 Aug 2019 34,606 posts	Quote Pin Nellers Yep, I think those coaches are wise AL. I did no speedwork at all before my first few Halfs. I just did lots of aerobic miles and a few 10ks.
rf_fozzy Aug 2019 9:37am, 13 Aug 2019 8,992 posts	Quote Pin rf_fozzy Nellers - I agree with your post above, broadly, but I still think I disagree with your terminology. I agree that terms get confused between different coaching philosophies, but I'm sticking to Daniels' descriptions and for me the semantics are quite important. Because your comment: " point is to repeat the same effort at the same pace" is true whether or not the track/speed session is a rep session/interval session/threshold session. Your pace for each interval within each session should always be the same, unless the session is doing something specific. So, for example if you were doing a session of 12x400m intervals (with say 3/4 time recovery), then you'd do all 12 at the same pace (perhaps do in two sets of 6 with a jog recovery between sets) and if doing 8x800 the following week, then the 800s should be the same pace as you did the 400s. Similarly a pyramid session of say 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 10, 8, 6, 400m - all the intervals should be done at the same pace. A repetition should be quicker than an interval for me. And generally not longer than 400m (can't remember what Daniels says is longest rep to do). But similarly all done at the same pace, but quicker than intervals. Obviously there can be incremental reduction in pace as improvement/fitness improves. That's why, to me, getting the terminology is important, particularly for beginners. I'm also not sure if I see the distinction between your threshold and tempo descriptions. For me, they are broadly the same thing. In fact, your threshold session sounds like an interval session to me on 2nd reading.
Nellers Aug 2019 1:47pm, 13 Aug 2019 34,609 posts	Quote Pin Nellers Tempo and threshold are different things in my mind. Tempo is aerobic but a tough sustained aerobic. Threshold is a bit faster so you’re developing a build up of lactic acid. I know it’s not quite the same but my rowing session last night was 12k @ tempo. It was a hard pace but sustainable so a continuous effort of about 48 minutes. The threshold work I do is 2k or less, at a higher intensity, and with recoveries between them of similar duration. I couldn’t sustain the threshold pace for much more than 2k (about 7:45ish duration). In the rowing at least there is a clear delineation between the 2. I can see that it might be more blurred when running as exact pace up/down hill into wind etc makes that tough to judge just by feel. To my mind it’s entirely possible to do threshold intervals. On repetitions I guess you’re right. Not much point doing them if they aren’t absolute top end pace. Intervals could be a range of paces. Reps are always going to be high end. The closest thing I do to reps in rowing is, 16 x 250m (about 40-50 seconds) with equal DISTANCE recovery, but that can give me a couple of minutes to get my eyeballs back in!😉
rf_fozzy Aug 2019 5:50pm, 13 Aug 2019 8,996 posts	Quote Pin rf_fozzy I'll have to check Daniels again for how he defines things. Reps are hard. We do the following session: WU, 4x400m at (what I call) interval pace, then regroup and then everyone together does: 200m rep in z time. Then WALK 200m slow, repeat 3x. Then 400m in 2z time, WALK 400m, repeat 3x. CD. More than enough!