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Intervals at 5k pace - why 5k pace?

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Nellers Aug 2019 9:37pm, 10 Aug 2019 34,591 posts	0 Nellers Larkim, I think the Hal plan that Slowby is looking at has a fairly specific target audience (like me in 2010 when I'd only done one Half before). Judging the right pace for 8-10 x 400m to keep it even is going to be a struggle for a lot of the "intermediate" level runners who will give it a go. Part of Hal's reasoning for basing the intervals on 5k pace, I think, is that it gives an achievable, realistic, but still mentally testing and physically stretching, for an inexperienced runner to work from.
larkim Aug 2019 10:02pm, 10 Aug 2019 8,295 posts	0 larkim @fozzy, no I was directing at slowby really. I must admit I do look at intervals based on their total distance (I would call 400m repetitions "intervals" too, I wouldn't distinguish them from longer intervals up to 1600m). So 3x1600m would be at the same pace as 6x800m, both at 5k race pace or slightly faster if I can maintain a consistent pace. I've followed Higdon too Mellers, agree that 5k pace is a good, sensible pace to drop in there as most will be able to guage that. I was more picking up on the point that slowby says he finds 5k pace easy. Which it should fit the first couple of repetitions, but really shouldn't over the full set, even if it is only 3200m in the early stages of the plan. It should be doable, and you should feel you could have done more in all honesty, but for a lot of people trying HH for the first time it should feel quite hard (it did for me!)
Nellers Aug 2019 10:08pm, 10 Aug 2019 34,592 posts	0 Nellers I've always interpreted "5k pace" in a Hal plan as your 5k PB pace (or if you've had a lay-off the best you could do now). I guess if you read it as "The pace I trot round parkrun every week chatting" then you're not going to gain much by doing 400m reps at that pace. If 5Ks, when you push the pace, feel easy then you're frankly not really pushing the pace are you?
rf_fozzy Aug 2019 12:30pm, 12 Aug 2019 8,987 posts	0 rf_fozzy Larkim - reps, threshold and intervals are all doing different things, so if you're doing them all at the same pace, that's definitely not correct. At least according to Daniels. My reading of the various definitions are as follows: Repetitions: Short (up to 400m max) done as fast as you can aerobically (so not sprinting) with long recoveries (>100%) - working on improving speed. Intervals - speed endurance development. Usually 400 - 1200m (ish). Intervals (from memory as I don't have the book with me) shouldn't be longer than 5mins max (so 1600m is too long for a genuine interval). Recoveries 50-100% of previous interval. Threshold - tempo efforts. I tend not to do these on the track, but my understanding is that it's longer reps (1200m - 2k) run at the pace you can sustain for 1hr (Hence I used to do a hard run for an hour). These tend to be aimed at building endurance. Shorter recoveries (for mile reps which used to take me 6:15, I'd take 2mins rec, so I work off the ~1/3 time when I occasionally do threshold reps). Have to say the combination (with hills thrown in as well - mixing shorter hills for speed and speed endurance and longer hills for endurance) of these works really well for me. Having said all this, if doing everything at 5km pace works for you, then that's ok too!
slowby Aug 2019 4:00pm, 12 Aug 2019 17 posts	0 slowby Nellers, yes, you're right, I wasn't thinking 5K 'have a lie down at the end' speed. I'm going to do the session tomorrow and I'll see how I feel after 8 of those! My 5Ks are mostly in a very hilly park so I will have to adjust that pace anyway for the flat. Can I ask another (even more basic) one? How do you all learn about theory of training? Is there a particular book or what?
Autumnleaves Aug 2019 4:52pm, 12 Aug 2019 13,906 posts	0 Autumnleaves Probably several Very basically, for me I learnt most from my coaching courses. I don't you well so forgive me if this is too pedestrian! Broadly, training works by stressing your body through increasing the load, be it muscular, aerobic, stamina etc. In your recovery days you then adapt to the demands made, meaning you can move up another notch. Recovery is therefore part of training (a fact some of us can be guilty of forgetting). Within this framework there are lots of variations and styles - some runners respond better to more intensive sessions than others and we all have different limits. Part of the journey is finding out what suits you best. Most of us run our easy paced runs too fast, and our harder runs not quite hard enough.
Love Lettuce Aug 2019 4:54pm, 12 Aug 2019 176 posts	0 Love Lettuce I can't contribute much to this thread but I'm learning a lot from reading it. Thanks for all your contributions
Wriggling Snake Aug 2019 5:12pm, 12 Aug 2019 23,594 posts	0 Wriggling Snake Coaching courses and various bit of reading and searching on the web, from Cross Country Skiing, Swimming, cycling to cross country running, as wells a few academic papers and studies, plus a few books, Galloway for example. If you ask me it's like this, the shorter/faster the effort, the longer the recovery, which aims you at 800/1500 which is at the short end of endurance. The longer the effort, the 'relatively' shorter the recovery, which aims you at HM and marathon. 400s at 5k is squarely at 5k, especially if you do 12, with say something like 60 to 90s recovery.....just enough where you have to judge pace, be able to cope with the efforts, to be able to run them consistently, and to able t do a recovery run the next day. roughly 300m less is more aiming to race at 1500 or less 300m to 800 for 5k 500m to 1 mile for 10k/HM 1mile or more, if you feel you need to do them for mara. I think I'd say never do more than 2 hard sessions a week, i.e. including hills, drills, and tempo runs. Bearing in mind you can mix all that up depending on how long you have been training, what specific distance you are training for, and at what stage of training you are at for that distance. That's why you all need a coach.
Nellers Aug 2019 6:44pm, 12 Aug 2019 34,602 posts	0 Nellers In my dim and distant past I used to compete in long distance kayak racing and I did some coaching badges back then. Most of the basic principles apply to any endurance sport. In fact these days i’m Applying the same basic principles to my indoor rowing training. There are lots of books out there that will give you the basics, and many many different ways to organise and categorise training to get the best effect. The main thing to remember is that within reason, and as long as you keep the training consistent, pretty much any organised structured approach is going to give better results than just going out and running as you feel.
Nellers Aug 2019 6:45pm, 12 Aug 2019 34,603 posts	0 Nellers And Slowby, yes adjust tour pace if your best 5k time is in a hilly course.