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Economics

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GlennR Aug 2023 7:47pm, 3 Aug 2023 71,828 posts	0 GlennR We do need to remember that "massive investment in green technologies" involves reliance on fossil fuels for a long time to come. I completely agree that it would drive GDP upwards, but it would be a long time before it would have any impact on the environment.
HappyG(rrr) Aug 2023 8:12pm, 3 Aug 2023 47,434 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the needs of the battle against the climate crisis. We need to do everything as much and as early as possible. Anything that reduces temperature rise even by 0.1C is worthwhile, nay essential. But I'll save my rants for the Environment Thread. G
rf_fozzy Aug 2023 8:16pm, 3 Aug 2023 20,713 posts	0 rf_fozzy Erm.... not sure about that. Switching to a fully electric powered society powered by (primarily) wind and solar doesn't require reliance on any fossil fuels and the faster we switch, the less reliant we are on FF. This is the bit I can't understand why people don't understand. We **must** stop using FF ASAP. There is no debate about this - the conservative scientific consensus is clear we must have zero CO2 emissions (or NAD) by about 2050 to avoid the worst effects of climate change. I don't care what GDP is if the climate causes chaos. The Mediterranean is literally on fire because of climate change and people still sit twiddling their thumbs. We know that the cost of inaction dwarfs the cost of action. And we already have so much known and tapped resources to blow our climate budget that we really don't need to be drilling for more oil and gas to burn. We have too much already. And given wind and solar are the cheapest form of power generation (see: lazard.com ), it's stupid to be drilling for more oil and gas that are likely to become stranded assets anyway.
rf_fozzy Aug 2023 8:24pm, 3 Aug 2023 20,714 posts	0 rf_fozzy Also we need a better measure of the economy than GDP.
Rosehip Aug 2023 9:41pm, 3 Aug 2023 29,584 posts	0 Rosehip I think I agree with Glenn. Whre are you getting the power from to make the kit for wind and solar power ? If we can’t manage to power the grid with renewables - we can’t add more power to build stuff more quickly with renewables. Or does production elsewhere/china not count?
GlennR Aug 2023 10:33pm, 3 Aug 2023 71,835 posts	0 GlennR Quite Rosehip. I’d love to know the carbon neutral way of smelting the metal for a wind turbine.
rf_fozzy Aug 2023 11:04pm, 3 Aug 2023 20,715 posts	0 rf_fozzy You generate the electricity using existing wind and solar generation and use an electric furnace to smelt the metal. And you then you replace FF infrastructure as you go. Saying it's impossible to do so would be like some seeing a steam locomotive and saying it was impossible to power it by electricity. We have the vast majority of the technologies we need to decarbonise. We just need the will to shift to it. And we'll solve the remaining issues on route. Just like weve done in the past.
rf_fozzy Aug 2023 11:08pm, 3 Aug 2023 20,716 posts	0 rf_fozzy Noone is saying we can't use existing infrastructure, including FF based stuff, to build the stuff we need to replace it. But we must actually get on with doing it and not be stuck going "oh it's too hard" which has been the Generation X refrain for too long when this problem was presented to them
rf_fozzy Aug 2023 11:24pm, 3 Aug 2023 20,717 posts	0 rf_fozzy It must say that I find it quite a bizarre argument that says we must invest more heavily in a FF based economy because a RE based one cannot yet completely take over. I remember articles in the 2000s saying we could never have an electricity grid without coal. It's gone from generating 45% of our electricity in 2012 to generating less than 1% in 2022. Wind has gone from generating about 1% to 23% in the same period. The transition is happening fast already. But not fast enough to prevent catastrophic climate change. We can choose to invest in the modern economy, be ahead if the curve and be able to offer services to build our economic growth on. Or we can choose to be stuck in the 1970s and sink money that will ultimately be wasted into FF infrastructure that will be rendered redundant and a stranded asset in 10-15years. Which is something like the timescale for any production to come online anyway....
Fields Aug 2023 8:19am, 4 Aug 2023 9,757 posts	0 Fields Noone is saying we can't use existing infrastructure, including FF based stuff, to build the stuff we need to replace it. But we must actually get on with doing it and not be stuck going "oh it's too hard" which has been the Generation X refrain for too long when this problem was presented to them It’s just a rehash of the “but you use oil” argument made against JSO tbh