A Head Thread

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swittle Sep 2021 5:00pm, 19 Sep 2021 79,516 posts	0 swittle Given that I came to running when not in the first flush, with a build poorly suited to the sport, the occasions when I was convinced I enjoyed it were few. Mostly, the sheer effort of LSDs, the frustration of poor form limiting my pace, and the relatively minor 'victories' in improved pace, or finishing well conspired to cast doubt on my choice. Yet I stuck at it - and can identify that, when the mechanical output - breathing, cadence, pace - gave way to the fluidity of continuous forward motion with little or no discernible discomfort or effort, then my spirits were lifted, like the corners of my mouth; the mile markers came up unexpectedly soon, and the splits were never slower, always the same of faster. Flow is an accurate description - but I believe that 'the high', if it exists, occurs when as many physiological and psychological aspects as possible are working in harmony.
Sharkie Sep 2021 5:33pm, 19 Sep 2021 18,630 posts	0 Sharkie Thanks everyone who has posted so far. Lots of interesting stuff has come up. No surprise the interest in the elusive (and illusive?) runner's high. Swittle, above, seems to suggest, that 'flow' is something to be learned or at least acquired through diligent practice. I'd agree that, as an adult, starting to run - taking up running - involves a lot more effort than flow, however comfortable and cautious the plan. I've long been interested in the difference between effort (possible discomfort) and pain (er.... pain). This is part of Canute's post form the previous page: ... the excess muscle tension in that picture reflects effort but not pain. I think it is worthwhile to distinguish between effort and pain. Fleecy is right to imply that we are hard wired to avoid pointless effort, but goal-directed effort can be satisfying. I find effort when running is usually exhilarating rather than unpleasant. The way you see effort is something that is under conscious control. A lot people, even coaches, talk about the pain associated with running whereas in many circumstances running fast more effortful than painful. Beginners -and others- sometimes describe discomfort as pain - ie a barrier it's hard to move beyond. Obvs it's hard to quantify pain but the words we use make the 'thing' real. Encourage the use of 'discomfort' and 'effort' oh coaches!
Sharkie Sep 2021 5:37pm, 19 Sep 2021 18,631 posts	0 Sharkie And then of course there's the Central Controller, so beloved of Professor Tim Noakes. I always think of the central governor being a bit like the Fat Controller in the Railway books by the Rev. Aubrey. Thomas the Tank Engine and co.
DrPhleecingD Sep 2021 7:01pm, 19 Sep 2021 53,175 posts	0 DrPhleecingD Yeah but Tim Noakes is a massive twat, the whole central governor hypothesis is pretty discredited nowadays
bja61 Sep 2021 9:02pm, 19 Sep 2021 3,448 posts	0 bja61 I didn’t know that Fleecy, do you have any references I could follow up and read a bit deeper? Fascinating, I thought it a bit simplistic but otherwise plausible…
Dvorak Sep 2021 9:04pm, 19 Sep 2021 23,450 posts	0 Dvorak Hmm pain vs effort. I might glibly say, if it hurts, you're doing it wrong. Yesterday's parkrun: goal-directed effort. Started a little quickly and it was maybe slightly uncomfortable, but then I hit a manageably effortful level and kept that up. Just before ¾ way it felt a bit harder, but I had a brief mental self-conversation and agreed to keep pushing (unrealisingly, and far from the first time, I'd actually sped up a little). And then there was the downhill, and I heard footsteps off my shoulder with about 150m to go and stretched out and maybe managed 30 seconds of flow. I wasn't in pain, and I wouldn't even say I had a rummage in the hurtbox. But by about a km, I'd come to an agreement with myself.
Canute Sep 2021 9:19pm, 19 Sep 2021 2,436 posts	0 Canute Tim Noakes’ concept of the governor is valuable insofar as it is a model of ourselves according to which the brain set limits on the amount of effort we are able to exert to protect us from damaging ourselves. However the growing understanding about how the mind and brain work proved by modern neuroscience suggests that we should not see the governor as an all-knowing, benign but rigid parent who sets predetermined limits on what we can do for our own good. In fact the limits sets by the governor are much more fluid. The limits are shaped by our experience and even sometimes by subterfuge. Our internal governor is in fact our self, so subterfuge is not quite the right word. But we are not as limited as we are often inclined to think. Our governor (i.e. ‘we’) can re-set our limits by the type of learning process that Swittle described above. While I think that the peak experience of flow is something transcendental that descends on us like a grace from the gods, patient practice as described by Swittle puts us within reach of things we never believed were within our reach.
Canute Sep 2021 10:42pm, 19 Sep 2021 2,437 posts	0 Canute Oops. I intended 'provided by modern neuroscience'; not 'proved'. Our understanding of how the brain works is an evolving topic.
HappyG(rrr) Sep 2021 9:19am, 20 Sep 2021 39,748 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) Dv, I think the difficulty is the definition of the word "pain". It's a thing I often wonder as our female friends mock "man flu" and remind us that one will never know what pain is until attempting to eject a grapefruit from the genitals etc. There have been points in races where I felt like my heart was going to pound out of my chest, or I couldn't gulp down another lungful of air, or my quads or calves screaming with discomfort on the verge of cramping. Would I call that pain? Or "discomfort"? Whatever, they were there to be endured and overcome to achieve my best on the day. And in training, that 6th hill rep that you couldn't possibly complete, but then 30s or 120s of rest later (depending on session) and there you are doing the 8th and 10th?! The human mind and body are fascinating...! G
EvilPixie Sep 2021 9:26am, 20 Sep 2021 27,994 posts	0 EvilPixie pain is an odd one I can lay on a massage table sweating, holding my breath almost crying in pain and accept it But I am useless at intervals as it hurts and I give up yet I can keep going untrained with blisters and do a marathon alone The whole body mind thing is a mind field. I can push to keep going in a marathon but can't stop myself from eating too much. I obviously have strength of mind or will power whatever you want to call it the mind is very selective! and goes on experience a lot I KNOW I can finish a marathon even untrained and have proved it to myself a few times. I have also proved to myself that I can't do intervals as they hurt result ... brain says marathons we can do intervals we can't