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Nov 2021
7:13pm, 2 Nov 2021
392 posts
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Bowman
What about shorter runs?
Still beneficial to keep 5-10k in z1-2?
Or is it to short?
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Nov 2021
10:08pm, 2 Nov 2021
15,938 posts
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larkim
It seems to me that all running should be z1/z2 or z4/5 and nothing in between (unless you're following P&D marathon plans  ). Then it's all about the balance of that intensity Vs easy.
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Nov 2021
11:03pm, 2 Nov 2021
2,493 posts
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Canute
Bowman, There is substantial evidence that running in zone 2 for 5K-10K can produce benefit. However, perhaps you are raising the question: If a runner can run 5K - 10K in zone 3 with little evidence of stress, are there circumstances where he/she might get greater benefit from running in zone 3 rather than zone 2?
I think here is one of those situations where the answer ‘it depends on circumstances’. In general, where the runner is training near to the limit where stress hormones are likely to accumulate over a sustained period, it is usually preferable to run an easy 5K - 10K in zone 2 in order to derive the benefits of running without risk of cumulative stress. However, when the current training schedule is well within the runner’s limits, I suspect it might be more beneficial to run 5K-10K in zone 3 than zone 2 because the additional transient training stress might promote a greater training effect. Nonetheless, in my opinion, if you want to get produce greater training effect than you can achieve in zone 2, it is more efficient to do this in a high intensity session and then recover during subsequent zone 2 sessions.
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Nov 2021
5:21am, 3 Nov 2021
393 posts
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Bowman
Ok, I know we are on details here, but studies then says, z1-2 or 3 is still som what beneficial if it’s still not to “stressful” since it’s under kinda low time/mileage?
Well I’m asking cus I like to discuss the science of course, and I ran the slowest run I’ve ever done last night:) I didn’t have to at all, I’m well rested, but I had my little son with me, so that speed was z1 for about 30min ish 5k, 6:40min/km.
I have problem maintaining proper running form in that speed, and thought can this really build stamina as a part of my 80% slow mileage, or did I do to short of a time in this pace, I barely got warm. And if it gets colder still, I’ll never will get warm
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Nov 2021
8:43am, 3 Nov 2021
2,494 posts
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Canute
As Seiler says: training is simple but physiology is complex.
The simple principle of training is that increased fitness occurs when the body makes beneficial adaptive responses to transient stress, but cumulative stress causes damage.
The physiology is complex. One factor is cortisol. Transient elevation of cortisol mobilises body resources by promoting transport of glucose into cells. Sustained elevation of cortisol damages body tissues. However cortisol is not the only factor involved. There are many messenger molecules (cytokines) released in to the blood stream during stress. Some cytokines promote inflammation; other suppress inflammation. Also burning fuel (glucose or fats) generates free radicals which cause local damage in tissues, but also promotes development of the enzymes that are the catalysts for burning fuel. The overall picture is complex, and many factors contribute to the balance between beneficial adaptation to training and damage to the body.
Training effects are based on physiology, so the fine details of training are in fact not simple. The question of whether or not the beneficial adaptations to a session in zone 3 are more likely to be greater than the harmful effect of adding to cumulative stress depends on circumstances, including overall training load over a period of weeks.
Our brains are capable of integrating a lot of the relevant information from messenger molecules etc. This is the reason why I favour training my brain to recognise stress rather than rely on measurements such as HR.
With regard to maintaining good form at slow paces, I think this is also something you can learn. I can maintain good form at 12 minute mile pace.
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Nov 2021
8:46am, 3 Nov 2021
7,226 posts
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FenlandRunner
"With regard to maintaining good form at slow paces, I think this is also something you can learn. I can maintain good form at 12 minute mile pace."
Excellent, Canute!
I wish I had a pound for every club runner that says they can't run slow(er). Some of it is ego, some of it is they can't be bothered to hone that skill.
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Nov 2021
8:49am, 3 Nov 2021
395 posts
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Bowman
Ok, thanks Canute, yes i guess there are no constants ill keep adapting and learning then, and if im fresh z3 wont hurt, even though i on a low and slow run
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Nov 2021
9:23am, 3 Nov 2021
1,921 posts
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Brunski
Bowman I'm sure you'll have picked this up but just to add my reading of things.
A runner could run every run in zone 3/4 but probably won't progress as much as they could by running a similar weekly distance but with the majority of that at slower, more aerobic intensities (for a start you'll get more training time if running slower), and you're also less likely to get injured.
Running a lot of mileage in zone 1 and 2 will probably only get you so far, especially if targeting shorter distances so some running in higher zones is required but this will be easier if you have a higher mileage base of low intensity work.
A lot of runners train maybe 3 days a week mainly in zone 3, often ending runs in zone 4 as their HR drifts up as they haven't built up the aerobic power of running longer in lower zones. They race a few parkruns but don't really impirove much, in the end they try upping mileage but not really altering intensity and they end up injured.
A smarter runner would run as much base mileage as their training allows (zone 1 and 2), then sprinkle in progressions and higher intensity work. They'll be able to sustain higher mileage and as well as improving at longer events this will carry through to shorter races too.
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Nov 2021
9:31am, 3 Nov 2021
35,593 posts
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SPR
Think this is self explanatory.
I track HR but don't train to it (or pace for that matter). My running is basically to feel.
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Nov 2021
9:47am, 3 Nov 2021
398 posts
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Bowman
FenlandR, yes i hear you, i wont say im to good to run slow :), even if its a little hard to give up the old belief, and even though i have been slowing down the easy training, its not slow enough, and i want to add even more milage, and then i have to polarize to not get injured. And learn to have a good run technique in lower paces as well.
Brunski, that is the thing i really try to adapt to, and do, first by my self since the start of this year, but then even more since i found this thread a while ago.
i just have to find the right intensity and distances and so on.
Thank you for all your inputs.
SPR,
Interesting!
Here is mine so far. Not so much 80/20 as i hoped for, but ill get better at it, and stronger and faster in the end.
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