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Aug 2019
10:37am, 20 Aug 2019
8,336 posts
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larkim
I share that amazement WW, but it does seem to be a fairly consistent picture.
I wonder at what length of long run / medium long run the benefit makes itself well known? Clearly when mara training, long runs in the 16+ range are normal. But when I've suggested that for a half marathon, runners could look to that sort of length to support HM or shorter race training I've been knocked back. Taking that mantra that "amateur" marathon training programmes are actually better HM and shorter training programmes (because physiologically we'd all be better running 80+ mpw for marathon success, providing we could tolerate the injury risk), surely dipping into long runs of at least 2 hours (or at most 2 hours?) would benefit every amateur endurance runner (I suppose I'm thinking 10k+, but maybe as short as 5k too?). NB I'm talking amateurs here, not elites - let's say 60-80% WAVA runners.
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Aug 2019
10:40am, 20 Aug 2019
4,997 posts
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jda
Agree with WW about enjoying the post-marathon fitness for a few weeks - I've had a few short distance results in that period without really trying. More generally I'm a bit in two minds about the off season. Every summer for the past few years I've really cut back on running but done other stuff (mostly cycling) and not exactly vegged out on the sofa. On the plus side, it avoids burnout and I'm not much good in hot weather anyway. However it does take a bit of time to get back up to running fitness over the winter. I wonder whether I would reach a higher level if I put in a solid year without so much down time? Might find out this year with an October marathon followed by perhaps a month of recovery then straight into the start of winter training....
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Aug 2019
10:44am, 20 Aug 2019
4,998 posts
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jda
I think the simple answer about 5k training etc, is that almost all of us would benefit from more steady miles. Most marathon plans push us harder than we would normally bother. I'm sure that Mo was doing lots of steady miles back when he was a 5/10k runner.
Don't believe that the "long run" is specifically much use for 5k, it's just the added miles that come with long runs!
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Aug 2019
10:44am, 20 Aug 2019
8,337 posts
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larkim
As a thought experiment, if you had a 10k race in the last week of October, would following a well structured and mainstream marathon training plan (at least 50mpw) and running the marathon to a max effort in the last week of September lead to your best 10k in October (assuming sensible recovery and some other form of appropriate 10k training in the rest of October), or would following a specific 10k programme up to 10k race day bring better results? And if so, how much better?
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Aug 2019
10:47am, 20 Aug 2019
109 posts
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riggsy99
SKR WW whilst training for my summer 10k I carried on with long runs up to around 16 miles plus did a 14 mile off road race and a hilly 10 mile race so I think that helped with the 10k and with the Newark half that was only three weeks into my marathon training
I think the shortest reps I did were 800s not including hill reps
My 10k time came down from 43:23 to 40:48
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Aug 2019
10:51am, 20 Aug 2019
4,999 posts
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jda
larkim, I'd prefer a specific 10k plan but only assuming equal miles! That is the key that I think most people probably duck.
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Aug 2019
10:51am, 20 Aug 2019
110 posts
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riggsy99
Larkim I did the Grimsby 10k on Sunday 21 July and started marathon training on Monday 22 July following the p+d 55-70 18 week schedule (minus the first week as that was the week of the 10k)
My marathon is 16 November and I am planning a 10k on New Year’s Day
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Aug 2019
10:52am, 20 Aug 2019
29,029 posts
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SPR
Many are always looking for the magic bullet. There isn't one. Consistency and tweaking to target what needs extra attention is the answer IMO.
My personal experience last year was that keeping progressive runs in was important along with the long run for 5000. And I still think I could run a bit faster over 5000 with the same approach.
I've only really got to the point now where I think getting in more than pure speed on consistent basis may be needed for the next level at 1500 and certainly 800. That's not even a sure thing though as I got less pure speed in than I wanted this year due to injury issues so just rectifying that would help.
For other runners it may be different. Jda and Baz come to mind as runners that potentially would work the speed end while maintaining endurance if targeting 5000.
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Aug 2019
10:56am, 20 Aug 2019
8,338 posts
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larkim
My 5k PB came off slow, trail long runs (in training for a 33m off road race) plus my Lent-streak habit of doing at least 2m per day. The 2m per day runs in themselves were typically at about 7:40-7:50 pace so were "easy" (because they were very short) but not stricly easy pace. Other than that, I was broadly following P&D but extending the LRs and making them terrain specific for the ultra. Smashing out a PB which remains 30s faster than I've ever run another 5k was a particular highlight!
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Aug 2019
10:57am, 20 Aug 2019
32,221 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
In Bazo's previous training rounds and my mara training experience (P&D) there was a reasonable amount of "speed" within it - the intervals were from 5 x 600m to 3 x 1600m at 5K pace (and I tended usually to do them a bit quicker than 5K pace!) I'll go find the plan and list them.  G
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