So who won the tour from 1999 to 2005

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Velociraptor Aug 2018 10:03am, 31 Aug 2018 39,023 posts	0 Velociraptor Tyler Hamilton is also not a credible source of information about the enduring benefits of having used EPO a decade ago.
SPR Aug 2018 10:16am, 31 Aug 2018 26,946 posts	0 SPR Vrap, ^ that 100% He might know what the peloton used to get up to and I don't think his account should be dismissed due to his past, but he has no training, or he at least needs to provide sources for the EPO claim.
Chrisull Aug 2018 12:00pm, 31 Aug 2018 13,202 posts	0 Chrisull Until we have some current modern day dirt dishers, David Millar and Tyler Hamilton are as good as it gets...
SPR Aug 2018 12:50pm, 31 Aug 2018 26,948 posts	0 SPR No the EPO claim needs to be backed by science, not a rider's assertion. It may be true but without sources it's hearsay. You can only have modern day dirt dishers I don't there's dirt to dish...
larkim Aug 2018 1:17pm, 31 Aug 2018 5,467 posts	0 larkim On the EPO front, does it not stand to reason that a drug which primarily supports higher training loads carries at least a small future benefit which may persist many years? I don't think it feels like a completely outlandish claim (though I would be sympathetic to the view that suggested that measuring the size of that benefit would be very difficult and likely to result in a small figure).
SPR Aug 2018 1:32pm, 31 Aug 2018 26,950 posts	0 SPR EPO boosts red blood cells as I understand it and because of this you recover quicker and can train more. Without EPO, what keeps you regenerating the same level of red blood cells.
Chrisull Aug 2018 1:32pm, 31 Aug 2018 13,203 posts	0 Chrisull The same is incontestable with anabolic steroids (and muscle bulk) - ok it's a totally different effect on different parts of the body, but the principle is the same and it isn't that outlandish to extend it? I think no-one would disagree that someone who becomes completely untrained but has run marathons in the past (and trained for them) would be in a better place when on the starting line of a marathon compared to someone who was completely untrained and had never run marathons or trained for them ? (Caveat: an untrained Lance Armstrong would still be faster than a fully trained me)
larkim Aug 2018 1:36pm, 31 Aug 2018 5,468 posts	0 larkim I think its the persistence of the impact that is questionable, and the impact of it especially when you're likely comparing someone who was a talented, drug free youngster with another previously talented, drug free youngster with an intervening use of EPO. If the impact in year was say 1%, then you'd expect that impact to be less and less the further from the doping period you get, and might be immeasurably small after a reasonably short period of time. No different to steroids I'd imagine.
Derby Tup Aug 2018 4:50pm, 31 Aug 2018 26,756 posts	0 Derby Tup Between 2010 and 2013 I trained harder than I’ve ever trained. My legs (quads and calves) changed shape and although I haven’t trained much since then their shape has larger stayed as they were in 2013. I can well imagine a year or two of quality PED aided work could have long lasting benefits (I didn’t use PEDs - well apart from Jennings Snecklifter )
stuart little Aug 2018 6:53pm, 31 Aug 2018 1,560 posts	0 stuart little It's pretty clear to me that steroid usage has a long term effect after stopping - plenty of athletes across sport return from bans with minimal loss of muscle. EPO on the other hand, I really don't know what to believe - after all if we're going on anecdotes from ex doors, Landis and Vaughters sit on opposite sides of the fence: velonews.com