So who won the tour from 1999 to 2005
80 watchers
Jul 2018
10:17am, 12 Jul 2018
5,244 posts
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larkim
Agree Meldonium was an odd one, but it was much more of a niche substance so it wouldn't surprise me at all if there was some undocumented benefit that only a few had cottoned on to. And especially as Meldonium is a heart drug, that certainly raises a flag. As to abuse of salbutamol by "the whole peloton" I think you'd need to back that up a little. Because actually one thing that really surprises me here is that most of the peloton don't appear to be using it. Yes, there is a reasonably high incidence of asthma in elite sportsmen and women, but there's reams of stuff on exercise induced asthma which back up why it is an issue. And equally, as a completely "main stream" drug which is very well researched and clearly been considered by WADA for a long period of time if there was any PED benefit to be obtained through inhaled use within the threshold limits established it would be well documented - WADA even say as much "Salbutamol is an effective therapeutic remedy for asthma with no known performance-enhancing properties when inhaled at a therapeutic dose. " |
Jul 2018
10:38am, 12 Jul 2018
13,035 posts
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Chrisull
SPR/larks - I didn't mean everyone is taking it (which re-reading I think is still obvious) BUT that no one team is confined to abusing it, that abuse spreads across the whole peloton and team lines. For instance Simon Yates and terbutaline: cyclist.co.uk Diego Ulissi and Salbutamol: cyclingnews.com Petacchi and Salbutamol: cyclingweekly.com Perhaps peloton was the wrong word. It's there in all sports. Rugby: irishtimes.com Cricket: espn.co.uk These are people who either didn't file the correct TUE, or were over the legal limit. There's plenty under the limits who have got their TUEs filed correctly. You may say well what is wrong with that, and I'd say it's interesting that so many professional athletes and cyclists suffer from asthma. |
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Jul 2018
10:47am, 12 Jul 2018
5,245 posts
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larkim
Yes, but you use the word "abuse" and I'm not at all sure that in any of the cases raised there that is the right non-emotive term. Yates was a medical cock up, and only the most hyper-cynical think there was anything sinister there. Petacchi and Ulissi seem to be negligent errors (the WADA detailed doc talks about many prescriptions and TUEs for Salbutamol being written as "as neceessary" which could lead to athletes believing that the number of "puffs" was not specified). Exercise induced asthma is common and well documented. Whether elite athletes are hyper-sensitive to small reductions in airways in a way in which the rest of the population isn't would seem plausible to me. And EIA is really a "thing". And remember, no TUE necessary for Salbutamol now, and *very few* TUEs actually being issued. |
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Jul 2018
11:44am, 12 Jul 2018
13,036 posts
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Chrisull
"Whether elite athletes are hyper-sensitive to small reductions in airways in a way in which the rest of the population isn't would seem plausible to me" Drums fingers impatiently, hoping V'rap will come along. Although there is fuel for both sides here: road.cc Elite road cyclists may well be more susceptible to asthma. BUT Terbutaline IS performance enhancing (strength and power but not endurance), hence why many prefer salbutamol (less dodgy as not seen as performance enhanching) Again comes down to trust. As one forum poster put it, "when you're positioned in the top 3 in the dirtiest race in the world" then people will doubt. Which is why Sky need to be cleaner than cleaner. Brailsford went from zero tolerance (saying they'd never employ ex-dopers) to zero credibility. |
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Jul 2018
12:36pm, 12 Jul 2018
5,247 posts
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larkim
My "hyper-sensitive" comment was more about noticing it - it doesn't matter to me if my intake is at 98% because of a mild sensitivity, but it would if I was trying climb Alpe D'Huez to win the TdF. Terbutaline is only available under a TUE, so that's no different than any other potential PED. Salbutamol is not only "not seen as performance enhancing", it actually isn't performance enhancing (as WADA themselves say). And the obsession with Sky having to be cleaner than clean isn't helpful. It's not just Sky, its every elite cycling team. If Sky were winning everything, all the time, and didn't have a squad that is eye-wateringly good (riders who would be team leaders at just about any other team) when they do manage to win, it would be fair to specifically make the cleanliness debate about them (irrespective of the way DB talks). But Sky don't win all the time, teams like QS, Sunweb, BMC have fair degrees of success and aren't singled out for excessive scrutiny about their every action. |
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Jul 2018
1:13pm, 12 Jul 2018
13,038 posts
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Chrisull
Sky themselves were set up under the banner of cleaner than clean, zero tolerance. A quick reminder: cyclingnews.com Brailsford can't vouch for other teams, he can only vouch for Team Sky. If he didn't mean it, then don't say it. I mean how else can you measure people and teams other than by their words. This was a philosophy, a guiding principle, it cannot be shrugged off. Cofidis didn't found themselves that way, so when their riders were caught doping, it's like "comme ci, comme ca". As for terbutaline - I outlined a small case against Simon Yates, banned for terbutaline use. Adminstrative errors, schmerrors. I don't believe he's a doper (his grand collapse showed that in the Giro) BUT let's remember who Mitchelton Scott's Sporting Director is: cyclingnews.com Rider 9 in the Armstrong investigation. Someone who competed under industrialised doping. You want clean? Ban the fuckers who were involved in that kind of doping from heading teams. Sound fair? |
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Jul 2018
1:28pm, 12 Jul 2018
5,249 posts
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larkim
So 7 years ago, Brailsford was highlighting some of the pragmatic compromises that might have to be considered against a mantra of zero tolerance, and giving (what reads to me like) a balanced view of some of the judgements they'd have to make from to time. And yet still we are under some bizarre impression that Sky are utterly uncompromising in their anti-doping stance? I have no doubt that Sky are 100% anti-doping. No doping in their team that they sanction, and doing all they can to eliminate doping of current team members through non-sanctioned means (i.e. riders accessing their own medics without the team's knowledge). I'm equally sure that there are plenty of other pro-tour teams who are equally as adamant about that, Orica / MS are probably no exception. I've got no problems with trusting someone like Matt White to act ethically today, even though they acted unethically in the past, partly because their involvement was so public. I'm actually more concerned about the risks that those DS and senior riders / teams officials that doped in the past and were never caught / sanctioned present. The "caught" ones are a public reminder of what went on in the past and I'd have thought offer a great insight into how to avoid many of the scenarios that allowed such widespread doping to be there in the past. |
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Jul 2018
4:45pm, 12 Jul 2018
13,041 posts
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Chrisull
larks - those comments come a year in, I found some earlier from the early days which were ridiculous. But it's like Asda saying "permanently low prices... forever". Sky aren't 100% anti-doping otherwise we wouldn't be here now. Under-promise, over-deliver. So if you trust Matt White, would you trust Lance Armstrong? |
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Jul 2018
5:03pm, 12 Jul 2018
5,251 posts
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larkim
I very nearly posted that you know - that I would be happy with LA as a DS or team boss. Yes, no reason in my world why someone shouldn't be poacher turned gamekeeper, if they demonstrate in the intervening years the necessary remorse and / or work with the ADOs to improve anti-doping. I'm an eternal optimist! |
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Jul 2018
5:06pm, 12 Jul 2018
13,045 posts
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Chrisull
Entirely yes poacher turned gamekeeper is good. But has Armstrong demonstrated anyway remorse, other than on Oprah? Plenty of them haven't in my mind. "They were all doing it" is a worrying defence, even if true.
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