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Sep 2023
11:19am, 15 Sep 2023
14,467 posts
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Dave W
I think JV and PR were just being egotistical, but to be fair, that's probably what it takes to get to the very top like they have. Or, to be a bit more accurate, it's how they have done it. Not everyone seems to do it that way. Or maybe they don't, but when they don't it hasn't been quite so obvious.
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Sep 2023
11:23am, 15 Sep 2023
42,653 posts
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SPR
It's technically impossible though for others to be really doing the same, even if they mentally are, they are still trying to stay closer to the riders up ahead, eg like Almeida when he dropped Ayuso on Wednesday. The team just has to decide whether it makes sense for Almeida to be defending his own position Vs help Ayuso keep his (assuming him staying behind would have helped). That's why Wednesday was so clear, there was no danger to the Jumbo three.
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Sep 2023
11:31am, 15 Sep 2023
42,654 posts
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SPR
I think Roglic would think I let Vingegaard go twice why shouldn't I be allowed to go. Not really sure what Vingegaard was thinking (maybe he wasn't) so definitely ego. I guess the ego isn't necessarily always around, just needs the right buttons to be pushed and Roglic wants a chance to win the Tour and Vingegaard probably wants to be the undisputed leader next year so that kicks it all off with Kuss in the crossfires.
I'd be interested to know how the meeting went when they decided to put Kuss in the break. They worked hard for it and not many teams would have done that. The time they put in was to make him a realistic threat so in theory they were happy up to a certain point (as Thomas said and has experience of) so maybe they changed their mind when it was close to reality. If that's the case then can't blame the riders for having doubts when they think they can win as well but that team management should have been stronger on the plan.
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Sep 2023
11:38am, 15 Sep 2023
21,992 posts
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larkim
It's a lazy phrasing, but they are the two "alpha" riders in the TJV pack. It makes perfect sense that both of them want to be top dog. The challenge is not to have Kuss caught in the cross-fire.
The "challenges" of this week for the team were entirely predictable though, I think. If, when Kuss took red, they'd quickly managed to get the message out that they were still planning on putting all of their resources into the two superstars, they'd have had a bit of grumbling but probably reluctant acceptance that it made logical sense as on the balance of probabilities JV or PR would beat SK in a straight three way fight to the end, so better give up on SK now and back the favourites.
But they chose not to do that, and it looks like they didn't get explicit buy in from the superstars either to the programme of supporting Kuss to win.
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Sep 2023
11:42am, 15 Sep 2023
42,655 posts
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SPR
The thing is I don't see how they come up with the plan for Kuss initially without Roglic and Vingegaard buying in. Sending half the team up the road on a stage that Jumbo could have ridden to get a straight fight between their GC riders and Evenepoel et al. I guess how well the plan worked might be the problem.
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Sep 2023
11:42am, 15 Sep 2023
21,993 posts
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larkim
I don't recall the stage with the break that won Kuss the gap, but listening to Thomas a few days ago in his travails trying to make a break and failing, it does feel like which of your team gets into the break is often more luck than good judgement. They were clearly "happy" for Kuss to be in a break, but I'd bet it could easily have been Kelderman or Valter if the dice had rolled another way on that stage.
And of course the size of the break and the gaps created are not plannable in advance too. I suspect a plan which allowed Kuss to be a breakaway rider worked "too well" and beyond their planning assumptions at that stage - and ever since they've been working out how to solve the issue!
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Sep 2023
11:45am, 15 Sep 2023
21,994 posts
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larkim
Just checked, Valter was also in the break that day.
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Sep 2023
11:45am, 15 Sep 2023
42,656 posts
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SPR
It's not that Kuss was in the break, it's that Kuss was in the break with three teammates! That's not luck, that's a plan.
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Sep 2023
11:50am, 15 Sep 2023
42,657 posts
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SPR
The four in the break were Sepp Kuss, Jan Tratnik, Attila Valter, Dylan van Baarle. Also they were clearly working to set up Kuss (makes sense given he was clearly the best climber).
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Sep 2023
12:46pm, 15 Sep 2023
21,995 posts
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larkim
Ah, my bad - the review I read only listed those riders in the top 20 that made the break at the time, so didn't mention the rest of the teammates. Pretty miraculous with hindsight that all of the teams let a break so powerful escape.
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So who won the tour from 1999 to 2005
May 2024
