Jan 2020
8:50pm, 9 Jan 2020
9,947 posts
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larkim
This is the sort of thing that riles me. Remain side slapping out classic "fake news" in exactly the same way that we recoil with horror about when the Leavers do it. We've got to be better than this. channel4.com |
Jan 2020
9:09pm, 9 Jan 2020
6,085 posts
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jda
Larkim, people can't make plans and commit money that isn't currently there on the hope that something might turn up at some point in the future. Johnson has reneged on multiple promises so a vague aspiration that they might consider it isn't worth a whole lot.
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Jan 2020
9:27pm, 9 Jan 2020
9,949 posts
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larkim
But that also applies to just about everything else EU related that may or may not get retained. That's the world we live in now. And it doesn't stop the scrapping of Erasmus being a fake news story. It's no more uncertain today than it was the day after the election. |
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Jan 2020
9:38pm, 9 Jan 2020
6,086 posts
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jda
There's nothing remotely "fake news" about the govt refusing to commit to trying to stay in Erasmus. The govt is still making vague comments but without a firm commitment it's not going to happen. You can't employ staff on a wing and a prayer, posts are already being lost.
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Jan 2020
7:00am, 10 Jan 2020
9,950 posts
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larkim
I don't disagree with your view on the position of Erasmus - just like much other stuff which is inextricably EU linked. But it was dishonest to publicise the actual news of the Commons vote as being MPs voting to scrap Erasmus. If we continue with that sort of approach we're doomed by creating a completely flawed political dialogue. |
Jan 2020
7:43am, 10 Jan 2020
44,177 posts
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Diogenes
You can’t disassociate Brexiters from Brexit, although I appreciate they are not an homogeneous group. It is right that we continue to highlight all the social, economic, civil and cultural benefits being a member of the EU provides which we will be lost so that people can understand that there is more to it than simply ceasing to pay a membership fee and imposing more immigration and labour controls. It’s not a time to put up and shut up. |
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Jan 2020
7:45am, 10 Jan 2020
44,178 posts
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Diogenes
(and we already have a completely flawed mainstream political dialogue, which the political classes exploit)
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Jan 2020
7:50am, 10 Jan 2020
6,088 posts
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jda
Larkin, as things stand we exit Erasmus (and lots more besides) by automatic operation of the law at the end of the year. The govt have so far declined to do anything to prevent this. You may think it's best to just sit around hoping for something to turn up until it is definitely too late but I reckon it is better to oppose it while there is still a chance of them doing something. Though neither of us have any power to change anything either way. I look forward to you telling us in a year or two that it was all the fault of remainers for not opposing the govt in the manner you (retrospectively) decide would have been effective. |
Jan 2020
10:15am, 10 Jan 2020
1,988 posts
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Canute
The inaccuracy of Green MP, Molly Cato’s, tweet about Erasmus after the parliamentary debate on Wednesday night emphasizes the importance of public access to reliable information and also the existence of mechanisms for challenging statements. The creation of Fact Checkers is at least one step in the direction of countering the rising dishonesty of public discourse. In my view Molly Cato should have been more accurate in her choice of words. However, she was drawing attention to an issue that should be of major and urgent concern. As far as I understand, the Department of Education response: 'The government is committed to continuing the academic relationship between the UK and the EU, including through the next Erasmus+ programme if it is in our interests to do so.' The vote last night does not change that’ is true, but potentially misleading. Note 'if it is in our interests.' Whatever the eventual outcome with regard to the Erasmus student exchange program (loss of which might be one of the many probable cultural casualties of Brexit) there is an even bigger enterprise at risk, namely the UK involvement in the Horizon research funding scheme. Modern research, whether in basic science, medicine or technology, is very expensive (i.e. projects cost multi-million pounds or more) and in many cases requires extensive collaboration between diverse experts sharing their expertise and resources. In many research fields it is difficult for a relatively small nation (such as the UK) to assemble the resources to sustain leading-edge research. In the past, the UK tradition of high quality research has carried us a long way, but that tradition alone will not keep us at the leading edge of research. Already we have lost the ability to lead international collaborations under the Horizon scheme; if we are not associate members of the Horizon 21 scheme (the funding round starting January 2021) we will not even be able to participate as collaborators in Horizon funded research. Preparing a grant application to fund an international collaboration is a very time-consuming undertaking that takes at least year. Without a guarantee that the UK will even be associate in Horizon 21, UK researchers will simply be unable to justify devoting a substantial amount of their meagre resources (time and money) to developing and sustaining the relevant collaborations. The Horizon program is already drifting beyond our horizon and I fear that the failure of the government to make a definite commitment on Wednesday night was a missed opportunity to keep UK involvement in Horizon 21 alive. More generally, it is very important that we (i.e. ‘would-be’ remainers, but most importantly the oppositions parties) continue to apply as much pressure as possible to minimize the potential damage of Brexit. This will require Labour, SNP, Lib Dems SNP and Greens working together to convince at least enough potentially reasonable Tories to join them in fighting to maintain collaborations with Europe that are clearly in the UK’s best interests. |
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Jan 2020
10:47am, 10 Jan 2020
6,091 posts
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jda
Yes I must agree that my reaction to the erasmus thing (about which I don't actually have direct interaction) is probably coloured by the issues of H2020 and other EU funding (about which I do). The UK govt has said some vaguely positive things about continuing in this, they have even promised to maintain funding for existing projects if we leave. But we all know what a UK govt promise (that is not backed up by legislation and budgets) is worth, and therefore it is no surprise whatsoever that UK access to this funding has in reality fallen off a cliff over the past few years because fine words don't pay salaries or mortgages. This represents real jobs and expertise being exported already, and collaborative relationships being broken. Current reality, not just a possibility depending on the outcome of future negotiations. EU funding represents a significant proportion of our total science budget, and it's just been slashed. We used to get well over our share of the total budget and it's not just the money, the collaboration and exchange is also priceless. Erasmus probably has a slightly shorter lead-time and inertia (H2020 projects are typically 5y with a 1y bidding process, similar for ERC fellowships, whereas erasmus funds shorter-term exchanges) but the same problems and principles apply. While people like larkim are niggling over details of terminology real damage is being done. |
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