If was being a little devils' advocatey / troll-y (heaven forbid!), I'd ask J2R and others if they think that there's a risk that remainers exacerbate that polarisation by mirroring it? Continuing to hold views about "them" will only continue the divide.
How about on the remain side we start with "Ok, so we're leaving. We have a medium term goal of re-joining the EU because we think that is in the country's best interests. But in the meanwhile, let's be pragmatic and see how we can all make the best out of this situation as we now know there shouldn't be a change in government for the next 4y11months."
I know actual opposition will require a stronger view than that in many areas, but continuing with the "them and us" game will only entrench that further, surely?
The point you're missing larkim is that the remainers have no power to do anything at all, good or bad. All you seem to be proposing is that we act as cheerleaders for the govt's scorched earth policy. Even if we did, how do you think that would actually make it better?
I do think that some of the most apocalyptic predictions will probably prove to be wide of the mark, but that doesn't actually make brexit good in any way...indeed a fair proportion of brexiters are now pretending "no-one said it would be easy".
No, I'm not missing that at all. In fact, I'm suggesting we do have the power to change the nature of the debate (in fact, that might be the only power we do have).
As an extreme example, just calling out all Brexit supporters as stupid and their Brexit leaders as liars continually for the next 5 years as the main opposition to what happens will achieve nothing.
The reality is that we will be out of the EU shortly. THat's become a fact, rather than something to argue about whether it is right or wrong. So the only legislation that will go through for the next 5 years will be legislation about how Britain operates outside of the EU. So with that in mind, surely the right thing to do is to create debate around this Parliament's legislation which helps to make that the best legislation that it can be? Just opposing the govt and passively helping them create the scorched earth they are hell bent on creating will be worse for us all, surely?
So if calling them out on their lies and failures is "passively helping", can you propose some course of action that you think will be more effective? Waving union flags and cheering? Putting a brick through a foreigner's window? What else in particular had you in mind?
Saying "ok I agree" isn't really going to create much of a debate is it?
Any Labour voters in England & Wales hoping for a recovery in their fortunes, need a recovery for their party in Scotland, I just can’t see that happening in the foreseeable future.
I’ve lost count of the ex-Labour voters I know that’ll never vote for them again post 2014.
I'm not suggesting "ok I agree" I'm suggesting "ok, so we now have an issue to resolve (e.g. border regulations, say), you propose XYZ Draconian approach, can we propose instead ABC solution" rather than "ok, you do realise brexit was a bad idea, well sort your own mess out then".
We can no longer stop brexit.
The choice is either to just sit back and craw whilst they dig their own graves, in the knowledge that the ardent Pro brexit lobby will argue till their dying day that it was the right thing to do, or we can get engaged with helping to sort out our country and our own lives and hopefully demonstrate that non-Tory approaches are better. There is of course a big risk in there that the Tories get credit for any "progress" but I'm not so tribal that I'm only happy if Labour gets things right. If the Tories get things right (unlikely!) on my terms then the world will be a better place too.
The problem, larkim, is normalisation. If Remainers turn a blind eye to all the lies and crap which continue to be spouted, then all this shit become normalised, accepted. Or rather, more normalised and accepted, because it already has. If the BBC, for example, had not had its misguided 'balance' policy of always balancing a real economics expert with some delusional fantasist, and had called out Boris Johnson's lies as lies all along ("But, with respect, Prime Minister, that is, once again a pile of completely made-up bullshit"), we wouldn't be where we are now. So no, I'm not going to stand aside and stop pointing out destructive lies now in the hope that we can all just get along. That will only make the situation worse.
Oh, it's not Brexiters I have the antagonistic views towards, it's Brexit. I have been trying to understand all along what drew such a large percentage of the population to want to push on with something so evidently pointless and destructive.
Larkim, the obvious way to minimise the damage of Brexit, is to minimise Brexit, via the closest possible relationship with the EU. The Tories have rejected this utterly at every opportunity. "getting behind it" just means campaigning to increase the harm.
Brexiteers need to own Brexit and part of that is giving it space to play out for better or for worse. Watering down and countering implementations now would just play into the narrative that remainers some how scuppered it. If it turns out bad, there will be no need to rub it in with 'I told you so', it will be obvious to anyone who is not one of the true faithful that it was a bad idea and will be a lesson learned. If it turns out well, great, everyone's a winner.
So nothing much to do other than watch it play out imho.
Some good posts here over the last few days by the way.
Name-calling will be called out, and Ad hominem will be frowned upon. And whatabout-ery sits somewhere above responding to tone and below contradiction.
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Fantasy General Election
Jul 2024
