Oct 2019
1:16pm, 25 Oct 2019
32,857 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Anyway, back to how to stop the c*ckwomble. What amendments (aka laws) can opposition put into the negotiation of the WAB that would a. get referendum or b. ensure never No Deal or with the assumption that the Tories will do everything they can, short of going to jail personally, because they're not principled enough to go to jail for something. |
Oct 2019
1:41pm, 25 Oct 2019
2,364 posts
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J2R
larkim, yes, he's perfectly capable of doing that, yes. For one thing, it would be spun as something different, as mentioned above, and backed up to the hilt by the Telegraph, Mail, Express and Sun. But for another, his supporters don't care, they want him to 'win'. If he said he was simply going to install himself as president for life and shut down Parliament, most of them would be behind him. The vast majority of people in this country have never experienced a repressive dictatorship and tend to assume that the generally benign, harmless, albeit messy, form of liberal democracy we have here is the default, not realising how fragile it really is. A lot of people are treating this whole business as some kind of game. |
Oct 2019
1:56pm, 25 Oct 2019
5,682 posts
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jda
Of course no laws can ever bind a future parliament (as it can change the law) so labour going on about taking no deal "off the table" permanently is just nonsense. None of them are very bright, and fewer still are honest. But it was the Will of the People that they be elected to parliament. So here we are. |
Oct 2019
2:18pm, 25 Oct 2019
9,270 posts
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larkim
@J2R - I can see how that might be correct. And maybe I am just guilty of sticking my head in the sand, but I still cannot conceive of a Briths PM doing that, nor the HoC allowing it to happen. Given how effective the backbenchers were in getting control over Parliament's timetable previously, if Bojo ran the FTPA process to a vote, got approval and then changed the date then Parliament would remain sitting (the FTPA allows dissolution only 17 working days before the electioN) and I'd have no doubt that the HoC would get the law changed. I simply cannot conceive of it happening though. But I wouldn't want to be proven wrong 
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Oct 2019
2:24pm, 25 Oct 2019
5,684 posts
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jda
I agree larkim. It seems to me that Labour is ducking and weaving here, they seem to be arguing that the trapdoor in the WAB must be removed first, but that's a thin excuse. WAB hasn't been passed! Of course in the absence of any decision by the EU over the extension there are no grounds for agreeing anything yet. Seems silly of them to not just agree, I can't see the benefit to them of trying to play games with this. |
Oct 2019
2:51pm, 25 Oct 2019
15,376 posts
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Chrisull
Labour have a dilemma. They are not sure what is best here. They see these polls, which shows a 1% lead (with ComRes), if the deal is extended beyond 31st October: twitter.com But they know the EU is not their friend here. The EU wants to see a deal, or perhaps a revocation , and sooner rather than later. The Labour line, which broadly seems to be agree a new (jobs-first) Brexit deal, and then campaign against it in a second referendum, is hardly likely to gain traction with the EU. So Corbyn has gambled on the EU forcing Johnson's hand with a longer extension. The EU hasn't blinked and is waiting for Corbyn's response. Labour now could say "no election" and be left with the EU going 10 days to sort your sh*t out. OR Labour agree to an election and Johnson rams through the withdrawal deal (he just about has the numbers), and campaigns on "Look I did Brexit" plus the real threat of no deal exit on Oct 31st 2020 is still on the table. I think Labour might be best served going for an election sooner, but they need to at least show Johnson has failed on some of his promises. More than anything they need to clearly communicate their position and what they want to happen next. |
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Oct 2019
2:56pm, 25 Oct 2019
15,377 posts
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Chrisull
While I was on holiday I came across this article which a lot of Leavers have been retweeting, and while people here won't agree with a lot of it, there is plenty of salient points made in it, which are worthy of consideration, from the New Statesman by John Gray (and yes I don't agree with plenty of it, but it rattles a few cages, arguing from a philosophical point of view that the Remain position is a "stupid", the "not thought through" position: newstatesman.com Secondly came through a separate piece on how journalists are failing in their job to report facts and in some cases that this is down to them simply not understanding parliamentary process and therefore misrepresenting it, and something needs to be done to redress that. constitution-unit.com |
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Oct 2019
2:56pm, 25 Oct 2019
5,686 posts
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jda
It's nonsense for the EU to try to make the extension any of Corbyn's business. They have been asked for an extension in an entirely legitimate manner, they can agree it or refuse it (and perhaps offer something else). If they wanted to involve Corbyn in the negotiations, they've had the past 3 years to do that, but it's not how the procedure is arranged.
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Oct 2019
2:59pm, 25 Oct 2019
15,378 posts
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Chrisull
True - but I was saying that Corbyn's decision on whether to accept an election rests on what the EU was doing next. Effectively if he agrees there will be an election, if he doesn't there won't be. The EU are not playing this game, hence they've kicked their notice down the road. They want to see if there is an election before agreeing the length of the extension. |
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Oct 2019
3:02pm, 25 Oct 2019
32,858 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
I'm sorry Chris, I'm either misunderstanding or I have zero sympathy for Corbyn or the Brexit-leaning Labour here (and as a lifelong socialist voter and supporter - I say socialist because it's ranged from Commie to Social Democrat with smattering of Green and SNP in Scotland when they were more ScotLabs rather than Tartan Tories!) Labour is in a mess of its own making. It should be 100% behind a 2nd Ref, whether it thinks that will produce Remain or Leave, and if Leave whether No Deal, Tory Deal or Labour Deal leave. If it thinks a Ref works, then it has to back the outcome. Grr. |
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