Aug 2019
11:18am, 22 Aug 2019
15,029 posts
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Chrisull
Stander - I didn't call you a snowflake. Let's run through the logic of this quickly - I pointed out that, we (remainers), are normally the ones called snowflakes, when "sensitive behaviour" is being displayed. Yes, I admit, the logic of my statement implies - if I think we are snowflakes, then you are a snowflake. BUT I didn't say we are snowflakes, therefore you are a snowflake. I said "If...." Actually I hate the term snowflake. As, I don't think we are snowflakes, then I don't think you are being a snowflake either. The conclusion was drawn by yourself there. You think we are snowflakes, therefore you filled in my premise. |
Aug 2019
11:19am, 22 Aug 2019
5,019 posts
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jda
Note that Stander repeatedly pretended he had presented the supposed benefits of brexit in here, until people checked back in the thread and showed that he hadn't.
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Aug 2019
11:20am, 22 Aug 2019
15,030 posts
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Chrisull
Ha I didn't say if, (but I implied if)
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Aug 2019
11:40am, 22 Aug 2019
15,031 posts
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Chrisull
And Jda, that is actually all I and several others had asked for. A list of the benefits. It isn't hard. I'm not going to stand there saying haha, that's not a benefit. I might debate the veracity of points. The only other regular leaver on thread Jovi did make some solid arguments about the EU's coercion of countries such as Greece, on debt repayments, an agreement which I find have merit. The EU has locked Greece into a cycle of debt repayments which they will keep on struggling to meet. Far better to write a lot of it off and have a thriving, growing economy, than a consistently sickly one. You could argue that feeds into some of Italy's problems too. However, that's not strictly speaking a benefit. It's a removed downside of EU membership. But mainly we're left in the position of having to place forward the imagined benefits ourselves. A lot of them come from widely debunked premises anyway. So here's some popular ones: 1) 350 million extra a week for the NHS Arguments against a) the figure is incorrect b) this government has no intention of giving us the 350 million even if it were available anyway 2) Control over fishing waters Arguments against a) we could have negotiated a stronger deal in the EU but UKIP /Farage chose to miss 41 out of 42 of the debates b) European fishermen will ignore any new regulations we make anyway and we will have to remove 3) Control over immigration Arguments against: T 4) Writing our own laws Arguments against: 93% of our own laws (source BBC) we drafted anyway, and b) the result is we have to delete all the laws, and then redraft thousands of them again, most of which will be copy and pasted from the EU terminology 5) Sovereignty of the people Arguments against) a) people cannot be sovereign, only parliament can be. If Parliament are traitors, then why not have an English Parliament 6) We don't have to pay a divorce bill of 39 billion to the EU Arguments against a) we've previously agreed to pay that figure, so any reneging will make us look like we can't be trusted (not good for trade deals) b) we benefit from some of that divorce bill - such as Brexit party MEPs like Farage get their pensions paid out of their pot. 7) We can unilaterally set our own tariffs Arguments against a) trading on WTO terms, we cannot do this, we have to agree trade deals, otherwise we have to blanket set tariffs. If we have high tariffs, we cannot easily afford imported goods, if we have low tariffs then we threaten our own domestic industries who cannot easily compete against Russia and China. 8) We can negotiate trade deals around the world that are better than existing ones with USA, NZ, Australia, India and the Commonwealth Arguments against: a) The EU is our greatest market b) Things like fresh food are greatly inferior when having to be frozen and shipped from USA/Brazil c) Any free trade agreements with above countries will undoubtedly include items like freedom of movement (India, Pakistan), or allowing US access to our markets and accepting lower standards 9) We lose Brussels red tape/regulation Arguments against a) our own red tape is worse - see Boris and the kippers story b) a lot is made up c) After a no deal Brexit there will be far more paperwork to be filled in 10) We become a more competitive as an economy and tax haven Arguments against a) - we possibly do, but at what human cost? Please feel free to add more... |
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Aug 2019
11:42am, 22 Aug 2019
15,032 posts
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Chrisull
Missing arguments against on point 3: We could take a far harder line on Freedom of movement anyway within the EU, but our government chose not to.
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Aug 2019
11:59am, 22 Aug 2019
2,201 posts
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J2R
Good summary, Chrisull. I maintain that the search for specific benefits is futile, though. We have moved from "sunlit uplands" to "we won't starve" and "we survived the Blitz" without much change in the level of support for leaving, so I don't think it's about actual benefits, it's more a touchy-feely thing, to do with independence from an imagined EU dictatorship. It's different among the people behind the scenes actually pushing for leaving without a deal, though, there are substantial, tangible benefits for them - the ability to cut back drastically on standards for workers' protection and the environment, for example, thereby increasing profits.
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Aug 2019
12:06pm, 22 Aug 2019
5,022 posts
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jda
That's a whole lot of it Chrisull. There are lots of side issues including things like scientific research which is undoubtedly already being harmed and where we get currently much more back than we put in to the collective budget.
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Aug 2019
12:08pm, 22 Aug 2019
18,791 posts
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DeeGee
I keep trying to remind the "We survived the Blitz" people that we wouldn't have survived the Blitz without the Polish and Czech airmen whose descendents we now want to kick out, but it doesn't seem to resonate in the same way with them.
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Aug 2019
12:17pm, 22 Aug 2019
282 posts
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deslauriers
The war analogy was dealt with very well by fellrunning on here. Anyone brings up "the war", I mention this: google.com |
Aug 2019
12:19pm, 22 Aug 2019
8,121 posts
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simbil
Has anyone that was in the blitz said that? From what I've seen, it is the post war generation - the ones that have 'survived' a period of stability, house price increases and growth but have no idea what real national adversity is that are spouting this kind of nonsense. And I'm not saying all Leaver or all Leavers of a certain age are like that at all. No Leaver I have chatted to has come out with this kind of drivel. |
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