Nov 2016
3:53pm, 26 Nov 2016
2,478 posts
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Ninky Nonk
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one spr. I can see some value in plyo work for injury protection and for the middle distance runner, where ft fibre hypertrophy and presumably top speed is a useful development.
Marathon is an event of endurance/extension.
Need st fibre hypertrophy for that. That means low weight high reps. Make it running specific. That means long runs and hills. No mistake that Lydiard had his runners do their long runs on a hilly route.
Don't give up on the hills chrisull. I've had issues before where I've overdone the hillwork. Just run easy for a couple of weeks, let the overused muscles settle. I've found that hill reps just once every couple of weeks is plenty.
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Nov 2016
4:16pm, 26 Nov 2016
23,091 posts
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SPR
If you can't run a mile in 6 mins, you can't run a marathon in 2:36...
I'm not saying this is the most crucial thing, there's a reason that elite marathoners run lots of mileage, however if you're talking about improving strength then you have to work on strength not endurance.
We aren't looking for hypertrophy (only bodybuilders really seek this), we are looking for neuro/ CNS gains where you are able to recruit more muscle fibres. This will help what ever distance you're running. For distance running it like translates into more muscle fibres to cycle through as you fatigue. That said most elite marathoners that started as 5km runners have already sorted that side I would guess. Kipchoge and Bekele may still do strength and sprint work for example but it is a strength for them already not a weakness.
Part of the theory behind Lydiard's LRs if I remember correctly was that if you run long enough you get FT fibres to works at the end of the run
"That means low weight high reps." - basically if you're working on strength you never do this.
Talking about FT vs ST. I'd be interested in the percentage of ST for elite marathoners.
I actually think making sure form is good at easy paces rather than plodding will help as well if we're talking about working on FT fibres.
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Nov 2016
4:18pm, 26 Nov 2016
23,092 posts
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SPR
I actually think making sure form is good at easy paces rather than plodding will help as well if we're talking about working on *ST* fibres
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Nov 2016
4:18pm, 26 Nov 2016
2,479 posts
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Ninky Nonk
Just checked magness...paraphrasing but...
'Strength endurance is an important part of marathon training. During base hill circuits, hilly runs, can be used. In particular uphill lt runs, or hilly lt runs are useful.'
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Nov 2016
4:29pm, 26 Nov 2016
2,480 posts
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Ninky Nonk
Sorry x-post. Agree developing strength needs strength work. But marathon needs strength endurance.
Agree you are right about hypertrophy.
For neuro development I prefer drills to plyo but to be fair the difference is very subtle. To be honest I actually think I would benefit from some proper sprint training but it's mostly a question of finding the time.
You're right about slow run form. I like the Japanese philosophy of relaxed running. Reinforces muscle firing patterns through high reps.
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Nov 2016
4:43pm, 26 Nov 2016
23,095 posts
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SPR
Yeah agree about strength vs strength endurance. Assuming strength is fine then hilly runs and easy runs with form focus should help.
Agree about muscle firing patterns for easy running, and these will carry over to faster work.
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Nov 2016
5:33pm, 26 Nov 2016
1,760 posts
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Canute
We seem to have fairly good agreement about the need for strength endurance, although we have differing opinions about the best way to achieve it.
I agree about the need to focus on good form during long runs. I usually focus on bringing the swing knee through fairly high. The hip flexion during swing stretches the hip extensors and increases the power of the subsequent drive off stance. The short time on short time on stance leads to increased airborne time and to increased eccentric contraction at the next foot strike. The net effect is an efficient powerful stride, but the strong eccentric contractions increase the risk of muscle damage. So you need to learn to listen to your body (and maybe also invest in a power meter) to get the balance right.
I think it is relevant that Ed Whitlock trains for many hours each week with a slow, shuffling gait, but he also races regularly over 5-10Km with a powerful high-knee action. His training is the ultimate in polarization.
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Nov 2016
5:46pm, 26 Nov 2016
10,341 posts
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Chrisull
Ok - so what needs should I look to be correcting if I start going bandy legged, so feet (not knees) swing out wide when I tire? This must be a weakness/imbalance somewhere as I've always had it, but has improved over years, although seems to be coming back a bit now. A UKAA top coach remarked that she wasn't 100% sure when she observed me, but that if I concentrated, it disappeared, and that hips were most likely to blame.
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Nov 2016
6:13pm, 26 Nov 2016
2,481 posts
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Ninky Nonk
Think you'll need a full blown gait/run analysis and physio assessment for meaningful comment/input.
If it comes on with fatigue - probably boils back to strength/endurance. See comments above!! đ
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Nov 2016
6:23pm, 26 Nov 2016
10,342 posts
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Chrisull
Aye it does. More strength/endurance needed.
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