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Nov 2011
9:09am, 17 Nov 2011
11,749 posts
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hellen
Interesting question. I am also wondering what to do.
Just done a whole load of marathons which I raced and got 4 PBs in 7 weeks. Now want to take it a bit easier on the speed stuff but still do the miles as I am doing an ultra in Jan. I then want a marathon PB in April.
So was thinking I would kind of be base training til Jan then start proper hard stuff after the Jan ultra. I find I can run loads and loads of miles at 9-9.30mm withouth getting tired (MP just over 8mm). But when I start doing harder stuff it knocks me out more eg I was vv tired after 5 x 800m @ 6.40mm
So what should I be doing between now and Jan in terms of the harder stuff. Surely a bit more than strides? Normal interval sessions but at a slower pace?
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Nov 2011
9:28am, 17 Nov 2011
728 posts
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The Duckinator
You flatter me Curly 
hellen, no wonder that 5*800 at 6:40/m's tiring! Going by your 10kpb that's around 3k pace.
One thing that both me and Curly swear by in base is a tempo run around MP. It's a very high-aerobic effort that pushes up the aerobic threshold (which for long distance running is especially useful as it has knock-on effects for all distances, from 800m up to ultras). If you're doung an ultra you don't need much in terms of harder stuff as your primary aim is just to keep going (I've never done an ultra so can only speculate!).
If you really wanted to do interval sessions then around HMP/10M pace will give you an injection of pace without being too hard.
Regarding mesocycles, endurance -> strength -> speed is pretty much all there is to it (although there are more subdivisions but that's an overcomplication). Endurance - miles, aerobic fitness, turnover (strides etc). Strength - tempo runs (HMP -> 10M), hills, slower intervals. Speed - lower mileage, intervals (10k->3kp for road runners).
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Nov 2011
9:42am, 17 Nov 2011
1,272 posts
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curly45
Although I am currently NOT doing a tempo at that pace just to be difficult
But yes you cant go wrong with a 5:00 steady / 5:00 MP for 45 mins combo as a session during strength cycle.
Presumably for ultras the hard session is back to back long runs and therefore would substitute for any work faster than steady?
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Nov 2011
10:31am, 17 Nov 2011
11,750 posts
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hellen
Yes, for ultras lots of long runs but I want to keep the speed fitness I have gained recently so want to keep up doing something so that I dont lose it then after the Jan ultra I can do more speed stuff to then get faster
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Nov 2011
10:39am, 17 Nov 2011
1,273 posts
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curly45
Hellen it doesnt quite work like that...your focus of event has changed so your training focus will change. As you make strength gains you may well lose some speed ones you made previously, but you wont go back to the previous level in terms of work needed to get the speed back.
You are building your cake now. It will be larger than the sponge last time. You will have to ice it again anyway, but it will take more icing due to being bigger on the sponge. Don't try to bake and ice at the same time as you will only get half baked cake
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Nov 2011
10:45am, 17 Nov 2011
19,479 posts
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Dave A
During what was supposed to be my base phase November/December last year I did 800's just faster than 5k pace. This resulted in a 5k PB during the same time and I felt it really helped me on when I was racing early this year. Probably been said already, but if the reps aren't a balls out effort and you reciver from them easily I don't think theres any harm in doing them
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Nov 2011
10:55am, 17 Nov 2011
731 posts
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The Duckinator
Dave, judging by your 5k pace (roughly speaking) 800's @ just faster than 5kp is likely to stimulate Vo2 max so it's unsurprising that you pb'd over 5k. Intervals, while being very beneficial and defiantly needed to hit your potential, will only improve you for a limited amount of time before you peak and plateau.
They are the icing so what curly said above about not baking and icing at the same time holds true. It's all about patience, accepting unspectacular results over winter from just running miles will allow you to run much quicker times when it counts at the sharp end. Personally, I'm in ~2:15 800m shape right now, and it would be very easy for me to go nuts with reps and lactic tolerance to run quick 800m times now, but the long-term view means that while I may get my ass kicked now, when it comes to June/July I will be the one kicking ass because I built the base first.
I personally don't like interval training over base, however the odd one to blow away the cobwebs for maintenance probably isn't the worst thing you could do. But I wouldn't do them more than once every few weeks.
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Nov 2011
11:22am, 17 Nov 2011
15,576 posts
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SPR
Another popular aspect of training which I think is very dangerous is that known as "periodization" - that is, breaking down the training year into various "phases", each of which is divorced from the others. Thus, the beginning of the year may be devoted to a slow distance "build-up", the second portion of the year devoted to hill training, a third part devoted to interval work and then speed training, and finally (though most of these runners never get this far) a racing season undertaken. The difficulty with training in this manner is that you go along quite well with one aspect of training (e.g. long distance running), and then suddenly, on a certain day, "Bang!". You start hill-bounding, or speedtraining, or something new, and the body simply is not ready for the change, and invariably, year in and year out, you are more often than not injured. The body should be trained in all aspects of running, all of the time. Only the emphasis should change as you progress through the year; no aspect of training should be entirely given up for any significant length of time. The balance between different types of training (distance running, intervals, hill running and speed training) should be adjusted as the year progresses.
Gordon Pirie
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Nov 2011
11:24am, 17 Nov 2011
15,577 posts
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SPR
My post yesterday had missing/extra words in various places, lol. Don't post when ready to fall asleep
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Nov 2011
1:00pm, 17 Nov 2011
15 posts
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Ninky Nonk
I completely see the value of longer, endurance runs at a pace to develop aerobic capacity, endurance, mitochondria and that. But surely it must be also be necessary or at least beneficial to also run in a way that maximally stresses the body to promote a development of the same attributes . Not to ice the cake, but to get the base to rise as much as possible - so we get a nice fluffy sponge, and not grandmas stodgy flat plate breakers!
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