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Jan 2021
9:44am, 15 Jan 2021
38,005 posts
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Nellers
When we lost dad (nearly 18 months ago now but seems like yesterday) I had a difficult time navigating the difficult situation with my sister, who holds some weird spiritualist beliefs and has been to see mediums in the past, as we clearly disagreed on what had actually happened.
It was easier in one way in that dad had been very ill for a while so we could at least both agree that he wasn’t in pain any more and find mutual comfort in that element at least, but it is difficult.
And it was, as dad would have wanted, a CofE service and I just had to concentrate on looking after mum so I didn’t roll my eyes at all.
At the end of the day I guess most people who say that sort of thing, or offer their prayers, are doing something that they think is real and helpful and I tried to respect that. It’s a bit empty though.
“He’s in a better place now.”
What, you mean a box in a cupboard until we can get to a beach to scatter him? Yeah, much better. Thanks.
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Jan 2021
9:56am, 15 Jan 2021
38,006 posts
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Nellers
Bazillion: it’s an easy explanation for everything. If you find any scientific concept too complex or there’s a gap in our current understanding (how did life actually start?) then “God” or “The Gods” is as good an answer as any for some people.
It gets a bit reductive though. If something as complex as life needed god to start it how did god come into existence? Is there another greater god that created him/her/it? And then where did that deity spring from?
And “god just is” isn’t really an answer. If you can’t accept that single cell organisms can happen by chance if given the right (so far undetermined) circumstances then.......
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Jan 2021
9:57am, 15 Jan 2021
38,007 posts
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Nellers
Bazillion was a spellcheck correction for “Bazoaxe” but I think I like it!😉
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Jan 2021
10:12am, 15 Jan 2021
37,093 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
It's such a difficult one - I dabble in a bit of reading of astrophysics and quantum physics reading and the more we know, the more it appears we don't know. Unifying the various sub atomic and large scale forces, time, dimensions etc. We have more and more information and break throughs but each one just poses more questions. So we're really not much closer to either how or what started space / time or how it works on a macro or quantum scale.
It's a bit trite to just say "God, innit". But it's also a good I think in some ways to say that we don't know that there isn't some external, conscious (whatever that means) power directing the universe(s). To quote contact "I don't believe there is data either way".
One way to look at might be "what is helpful?" Those of us who are rationally or academically minded might find it helpful to say that there is no evidence of anything other than our own perception of life and to believe in something bigger is just distracting, confusing or worse, directs people in the wrong way. Others might say that they get succour, support, comfort and possibly guidance in a good way from religion, whether that's being part of a community, having some (occasionally sensible) rules to follow and even just some concepts beyond what we understand to cling on to.
If it helps, and doesn't cause conflict, then each to their own, I say. But the conversations are hard, esp at difficult times like bereavement, I expect Nellers.
There's also absolutely incontrovertible evidence that established religions (or those purporting follow them) hae created terrible conflict - abuse, wars and injustice. So there's a lot to criticise too.
Good BBQing thread!  G
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Jan 2021
5:06pm, 15 Jan 2021
6,684 posts
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The_Saint
A friend of mine had to explain the death of the goldfish to her 4 year old - she hit on "he went to goldfish heaven".
Her son reasonably asked where this was, she replied out in space, he countered with why can't we see this with our telescope and she got check mate with "it's further away than that".
We agreed that all religious debate is summarised there.
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Jan 2021
5:39pm, 15 Jan 2021
8,436 posts
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GordonG
Hiya Happy
i'm not sure i agree with the bit about us being no closer to an answer to things like the start of the universe or a unifying theory just because each answer seems to bring new questions. Science has been doing that ever since it existed - that's arguably the main benefit of science. We perhaps may not have a unifying theory for a very long time but I think we're (a tiny bit) closer to it than we were 100/50/20/10 years ago.
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Jan 2021
5:50pm, 15 Jan 2021
38,011 posts
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Nellers
I'm kind of in the camp that it should theoretically be possible to explain the universe in terms of physical tangible actual stuff (whether that's quantum physics or something else opened up by quantum physics research).
Whether we ever do get to an "ultimate answer" is a tough one but getting closer to it, even if only incrementally, is the point surely?
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Jan 2021
11:25am, 16 Jan 2021
37,108 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Agree both Nellers and Gordon. My point was that some people, in the absence of an answer from science in their own lifetime, or even lack of understanding or "belief" that science will ever reach an answer, resort to religion as it offers answers. Not rational ones, but answers nonetheless? G
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Jan 2021
11:40am, 16 Jan 2021
38,030 posts
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Nellers
Yep. The "God of the gaps" is very real for people to explain anything they don't (or science doesn't) yet understand.
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Jan 2021
12:50pm, 17 Jan 2021
6,437 posts
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Dooogs
The question from evangelists i always struggle to counter is "well, what caused the Big Bang then?".
I know the scientifically / philosophically correct answer is "time didn't exist before the BB so the question is unanswerable " but that's never felt like a very satisfying answer to either of us. I tend to resort to a variant of "dunno but I suspect it's verrry unlikely to be what you're suggesting...".
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