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Feb 2009
8:02am, 19 Feb 2009
26,540 posts
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Gobi
[unlurk]
ps. are you sure you have the Heart Rate ranges right as I cannot believe you need to run so slowly?
I know as a pace orientated coach given your 10km PB I would not expect YOU would not spend any time running over 11.30 pace.
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Feb 2009
8:04am, 19 Feb 2009
3,879 posts
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Boab
Roo, as you know running in a hilly area will have a huge impact on HR, so that should be factored in. I know you are disheartened, but may I suggest the following.
I would suggest that you move up into the 70-80% WHR on a few days per week. I know parker says that this is the grey zone, but I personally run in the 70-80% zone at least twice a week have seen pretty significant improvements over the last few months.
Also contrary to Parker I never have run over 85% (82% actually) in training.
I also run below 70% on 'easy' days though and I think you should keep these runs in your plans.
However, instead of sticking religiously to below 70%, experiment with a few other ranges ignoring the grey areas. I am not saying alternating easy with hard, but more easy with medium effort. If you feel good stretch out the pace a little. Use percieved effort as well as HR and don't be a slave to the HR Monitor 100% of the time.
Over the last 6 months, I've steadily improved to a point where I am now running faster by 1 minute per mile at 80% MaxHR (which for me is 81% of WHR) on runs of 10 miles+.
I know this post will be lost or ignored by the time you read it so I'll fmail you as well. 
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Feb 2009
8:30am, 19 Feb 2009
11,722 posts
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RooA
Thanks guys, just processing information and will respond. Just going to answer Gobi's questions...
Running at 11mm at 70+% feels Very Easy, Mr Gobi. Running at around 10mm has always felt easy. Running at sub-10mm was starting to feel easy but was possibly still slightly too fast for an easy run.
I'm sure I have the HR ranges right. RHR taken over several mornings in bed. MaxHR found twice when running til I pretty much puked.
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Feb 2009
8:35am, 19 Feb 2009
11,723 posts
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RooA
PS At New Year, on a flat 11 miles I averaged 8:57 pace feeling comfortable and talking all the way round. Then did 6 miles at a slightly slower pace the next day. I was tired after those efforts and I know I need to run slower than THAT, but I'm just illustrating where I was before I started this.
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Feb 2009
8:36am, 19 Feb 2009
7,728 posts
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eL Bee!
Gobi and Boab - Great posts, fellas
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Feb 2009
8:42am, 19 Feb 2009
17,706 posts
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I agree with Gobi and can't understand how on earth it can wok out that you need to run so slow to be honest.
Judging by your PBs I would expect your easy pace band to be between 10:00 and 11:30 mins per mile depending on mileage. The slower end being for 20 milers...
The only thing I would be careful of Roo when running to pace is the hills - you have plenty of them. Running to pace can be quite knackering if you are a slave to it. You need to accept slwoing down for the up hills and speed up on the downs but not too much.
The High Peak Trail and trails near us are nice to help you do easy pace runs without having hills to contend with.
I think you have made progress - you ran 18 miles the other week quite comfortably which takes a fair bit of endurance...
Any improvements start about six to eight weeks in so it is early days yet but they then carry on slowly in dribs and drabs for many months.
As Boab says don't try to slavishly stick to the HR and don't try to do that with pace either. Just try to keep somewhere near for MOST of the time and you will be fine.
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Feb 2009
8:47am, 19 Feb 2009
4,186 posts
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Boingy
Sorry if you have quoted these before Roo, but out of interest what are your RHR and MaxHR ?
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Feb 2009
8:51am, 19 Feb 2009
11,724 posts
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RooA
I need a cup of tea before I can digest the info... then I'll be back.
Just to answer your question Boingy - RHR=40 MaxHR=193
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Feb 2009
9:20am, 19 Feb 2009
257 posts
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Theboybarry
Roo, when I started on HR training initially last year I was using a Lactate Threshold plan which I was given by a guy who runs trails a lot in the States so found it easier to work via this method. The numbers you work from are different - slightly higher bandings which helped me and might open up a faster pace for you. I've only dropped back to WHR for my marathon and its paying off big time.
I will need to dig out the sheet he gave me on it, but I remember the initial figure was gained from an all out 30 minute run and taking the average % as your Lactate threshold figure. Thats the figure you play with not MHR/RHR.
I know its just cooking the books slightly (god you can tell I've been watching The Wire) but it might refresh you a little.
Does it sound familiar to anyone ?
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Feb 2009
9:24am, 19 Feb 2009
2,319 posts
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Fenland Runner
Random question;
Is HR and pace a 'perfect' linear relationship?
My 'gut' feel is that is that each individual has plateau's when to increase pace a significant increase in HR is required. Conversely if you're not on a plateau; only a small rise in HR will result in a dramatic increase in pace.
This could be complete and utter tosh
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