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Mar 2020
9:34am, 5 Mar 2020
6,028 posts
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Northern Exile
You are always polite and respectful Linds. I should watch and learn.
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Mar 2020
9:36am, 5 Mar 2020
12,059 posts
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Cerrertonia
Dio - like most of the other changes between Anglo-Saxon & Middle English, it probably came about through contact/creolisation with celtic, latin & norse languages, adult learners of those languages etc. 12th century English is very different to 6th century Anglo-Saxon, it changed further and much more rapidly than neighbouring languages.
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Mar 2020
9:37am, 5 Mar 2020
19,234 posts
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DeeGee
"Ich bin Gestern mit dem Zug nach Berlin gefahren" is no more or less comprehensible than "Gestern ich bin gefahren nach Berlin mit dem Zug", surely?
Although the second sentence, gramatically, is just plain incorrect.
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Mar 2020
9:39am, 5 Mar 2020
19,235 posts
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DeeGee
And that's the problem I have with German, I have to think the sentence through from start to finish before uttering it.
Well, that, and the correct pronunciation of vowels.
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Mar 2020
9:43am, 5 Mar 2020
45,726 posts
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Diogenes
TBH, I have no idea about language and don't really understand the differences you are discussing, especially not when in German.
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Mar 2020
9:44am, 5 Mar 2020
1,817 posts
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um
[ DeeGee - nothing wrong with thinking & knowing what you plan to say before you start. Shame more people don't do it. ]
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Mar 2020
10:01am, 5 Mar 2020
19,236 posts
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DeeGee
Apologies, Dio. First sentence followed exactly German word order rules:
"I have yesterday by the train to Berlin been"
Second sentence followed a more English word order:
"Yesterday I went to Berlin by the train"
In English, even though the meaning of the first sentence is comprehensible, the word order makes it just plain wrong. In German it has to be that way.
The difference, though, between the German and the English is that there are a few ways to order the words in the English sentence without the sentence appearing "wrong" ("I went to Berlin by train yesterday", "Yesterday I went by train to Berlin", "I went by train yesterday to Berlin") whereas in German, a sentence like this must have the time first, then the manner of travel, and finally the place.
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Mar 2020
10:15am, 5 Mar 2020
31,205 posts
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♪♫ Synge ♪♫
The only thing that struck me as wrong with the second example was the verb placement.
Surely all these are acceptable, depending on what the speaker wishes to emphasise?
Ich bin Gestern mit dem Zug nach Berlin gefahren.
Gestern bin ich mit dem Zug nach Berlin gefahren.
Nach Berlin bin ich gestern mit dem Zug gefahren.
Mit dem Zug bin ich gestern nach Berlin gefahren.
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Mar 2020
10:15am, 5 Mar 2020
6,761 posts
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paul the builder
Must it, though? Seems to contradict (but not conflict  ) what NE and Linds said on previous page...
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Mar 2020
10:17am, 5 Mar 2020
6,762 posts
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paul the builder
I learned German the same way DG did, I guess. The rule of TMP.
Obviously when I'm stuttering my way through pigeon German with a supplier simply getting vaguely the right vocab is as ambitious as I get, but I still recognise the rule when reading or writing it.
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