Coronavirus discussion thread

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Spideog Oct 2020 12:05pm, 30 Oct 2020 812 posts	0 Spideog What is the same about a couple of islands on the opposite side of the world with limited number of cases initially and limited international travel to other equally interconnected travel hubs? There is something useful to be figured out in how Germany compared to other European countries, or why Italy managed to keep cases to one region, or various different responses to this second wave across Europe and if any methods are having an effect. But a couple of islands with limited international travel, and in the case of NZ all of that is only through one airport once you ignore flights to Australia, then they are just not comparing like with like. There was potentially an option of shutting down all travel in and out of UK/ Ireland, but with the amount of travel going on throughout the EU/ World then by the time Covid was noticed it was already too late as the number of cases would have been too large.
larkim Oct 2020 12:05pm, 30 Oct 2020 12,457 posts	0 larkim TS - not at all. But if we're saying Aus / NZ good then the whole of Europe is on the naughty step for getting it wrong. I'd rather measure ourselves against a continental, similarly populous industrial nation than against a remote, strictly immigration limited and less densly populated country for a direct comparison. Aus / NZ got it right. They took advantage of the things that were inherent for them AND got a lot of the basics right too. We didn't have some of their advantages, but we also got the basics wrong. No exceptionalism there, just making a rational distinction. In terms of covid security in offices - 100% agree, if you're 2.1m desk away from someone else the chances are it doesn't offer any more protection than being 1.9m away. On the other hand, from an organisational perspective, if your colleague 1.8m away from you contracts C19 then your employer has to send you home even if you've been wearing a mask, have a plastic screen up, and have been washing your hands diligently all the time (and yes, none of those things are taken into account, I've spoken directly with both Public Health and higher tier T&T about this specifically - because they can't vouch for the quality of the "PPE" they disregard it). OTOH, if you work unmasked with no additional barriers 2.2m away from your nearest colleague, there's no obligation to disrupt the workplace and send you home asymptomatically. In some workplaces having people still in to deliver services (e.g. education) carries weight with the Public Health and higher tier T&T teams in terms of when they advise self isolation.
The_Saint Oct 2020 12:10pm, 30 Oct 2020 6,650 posts	0 The_Saint Australia is a continent, the UK is a relatively small island. Again the little Englander mentality.
DeeGee Oct 2020 12:13pm, 30 Oct 2020 19,973 posts	0 DeeGee A better example might be Japan, no? Twice the population. Fewer than 2000 deaths. Huge population density in its biggest city.
Spideog Oct 2020 12:18pm, 30 Oct 2020 813 posts	0 Spideog What is it about either Australia or New Zealand and their interconnectedness to the world, or their population density, or how many of their population fly to northern Italy for a weeks skiing in February/ March, or how many people commute daily to any of the already infected other European countries back at the beginning of this, or how many daily interconnecting flights they have to various cities in China that are then transiting on to other cities that makes them comparable to the UK? Why is it only the UK that Australia and New Zealand should be compared to? Is there a litter Frenchman complex going on as well because France didn't do so well against them, or a litter Italian, or little German...etc? Yes, Australia and New Zealand did well, but they were dealt a very different hand to countries of the EU.
larkim Oct 2020 12:21pm, 30 Oct 2020 12,459 posts	0 larkim Can you really not see the distinction between a contintental mass like Australia with pop density of 3.2 people per sq km and the UK with 275 people per sq km? Even just the urban areas of Australia pale by comparison to UK (and most of Europe's) big cities. It's comparing apples and pears. No little Englander menatality about it, unless you think that by saying Aus and NZ are different I'm giving a free pass to Boris to argue that he's done the best he can because of the country we are. Not a bit of it - they've ballsed it all up, and only have to look across the channel to Germany to see how they could have done it so much better. Does Germany rest on it's laurels and say it's got it entirely right? I doubt it, but I also doubt that they lose much sleep over the fact that they didn't control it as well as Australia and NZ because it is so self-evident that they had a different hand to play. Not really that different to in the UK at the moment where Shetland has the lowest levels in the country - they've just got some geographic and population advantages that make control easier.
larkim Oct 2020 12:23pm, 30 Oct 2020 12,460 posts	0 larkim In terms of Japan, Vietnam etc. I did read a while back that the dominant strain of the virus over there was less virulent than over here. Perhaps something for me to read more on. But I agree, Japan is a shining example of a country close to the potential epicentre of things that got control right somehow. Whether it was compliance of the population or the specific measures they used, including immigration controls, I don't know.
Spideog Oct 2020 12:24pm, 30 Oct 2020 814 posts	0 Spideog ...and Shetland were badly hit initially after just once case got in. But as they are a remote island on the way to nowhere once they got that incident under control it becomes relatively easy to then keep a lid on things.
Cheg Oct 2020 12:29pm, 30 Oct 2020 1,979 posts	0 Cheg Auckland 21m passengers in 2019. Christchurch 7m. Heathrow 80m. Gatwick 45m. Manchester 28m. Stansted 28m. Total across our biggest 40 airports 300m. I've acknowledged the things they have done better. But the minute we shut down on a very similar date to them with 6,500 cases and they did with 100 we were never going to perform as well.
Too Much Water Oct 2020 12:41pm, 30 Oct 2020 7,734 posts	0 Too Much Water Japan has a compliant population, all of whom would speak and understand Japanese (part of the UK spread appears to be exacerbated in areas where English isn’t spoken in the household so part of our population is harder to reach), has also virtually sealed its borders to everyone, also very health conscious, healthier population and was already very face mask compliant. Also politically more or less a one-party government / state so presumably less at each other’s throats than the UK. None of this is to defend the UK, just pointing out different starting points, and differing points of divergence in their reaction to Covid.