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Jul 2018
6:10pm, 8 Jul 2018
2,012 posts
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jacdaw
Water with electrolytes plus COHs should be better, theoretically, at preventing dehydration than just water and electrolytes. And dehydration *may* make cramp worse, though I think the most compelling evidence suggests cramp is due to muscles being pushed beyond what they have been trained for.
To complicate matters food + electrolyte drink might be the same as sports drink containing COHs and electrolytes...
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Jul 2018
6:13pm, 8 Jul 2018
564 posts
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DavidAP
I find food takes time to get into the system, liquid calories have a greater impact, quicker.
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Jul 2018
6:27pm, 8 Jul 2018
7,215 posts
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NDWDave
How many calories do people aim for per hour? In my first few races, I probably ate too much and felt bloated. Last couple, I have calorie counted and stuck to 250ish per hour and felt much better
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Jul 2018
6:34pm, 8 Jul 2018
2,014 posts
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jacdaw
30 - 60g per hour of carbs is recommended; 120 to 240 calories. I think. 1g per min is max that can be absorbed.
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Jul 2018
6:35pm, 8 Jul 2018
40,553 posts
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Bintmcskint
I aim for 170 to 200 but I am a small person
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Jul 2018
6:48pm, 8 Jul 2018
567 posts
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DavidAP
Way less calories per hour for me, but I'm slow and working at a lower intensity than you racing snakes.
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Jul 2018
10:50pm, 9 Jul 2018
2,018 posts
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jacdaw
OK, I have a plan...
I've ordered 3 different sports drinks, to see which I like the best, with the intention of having 500ml of sports drink with ~30g of COH, 500ml plain water, 1 gel (~20g COH), and a couple of bits of flapjack or similar (~40g COH) every 2 hours. This gives me about 45g COH per hour.
Problem will be drinking that much fluid, as left to my own devices I drink about a litre in 5 hours, even on a hot day! And end up dehydrated.
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Jul 2018
11:20pm, 9 Jul 2018
26,301 posts
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Derby Tup
Slip a  in your bumbag and you’ll be right as owt 
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Jul 2018
12:26am, 10 Jul 2018
17,667 posts
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flanker
Interesting debate. My first thought is that IMO the calorie/carb guidelines are, at best, taken as a very rough guidance and experiment to see what works for you. I can happily take in well over the supposed maximum per hour for 30+ hours without any bloating or gut problems. I'd struggle if I stuck to what certain experts preach as being the maximum physiologically possible.
Up until recently I've worked on a 3-strand approach: bottle of water, bottle of high-5 electrolyte and food (a mixture of gels, shot bloks and real food) separately.
The fuelling approach generally worked but I found I got peaks and troughs of performance based on the manner of fuelling - an initial trough while the body tried to digest whatever fuel I've given it, followed by a peak as it gets to the muscles, and then a decline as it runs out. The duration and magnitude of these phases depends on the type of fuel and the nature of the event at that point; if you forget to fuel at the appropriate time then it's very easy to bonk with this approach (and I have done so many times).
So... for the last few months I've been experimenting with Tailwind while on the move and real food when I fancy it at checkpoints and, despite initially being highly sceptical, the results have been surprisingly positive. It got me around Fellsman, and this last weekend I did the 36 miles of the UT55k on a packet of tailwind into a 500ml flask roughly every 10 miles (as CPs allowed). Aside from that I had plenty of own-brand (and I suspect now lower sugar) coke at the CPs where available, plus a caffeine gel at about 26 miles to give me a bit of a pick up when I started to wilt in the hottest part of the day. I'm finding that as I'm constantly 'drip-fuelling' I don't get the peaks and troughs I used to. In my second flask I have mainly water, although I did stick in a hi-5 Zero electrolyte tab in it during the hotter parts of the day this weekend as a precaution and for a bit of variety.
The only issue I've found so far is that on really hot days having one flask tied up drip-feeding in Tailwind over a period of a coupe of hours can leave you short of enough fluid to drink to combat thirst. I now carry a third soft flask that I can use for long legs, if the temp gets too hot, or if I find that I'm starting to feel thirsty more often than I'd like (or if I'm peeing Iron Bro!).
Some of the Tailwind flavours I find pretty hideous, but the lemon and 'natural' of the un-caffeinated and the green tea and raspberry of the caffeinated varieties are all quite palatable for me.
On this basis my nutrition plan for UTLD this year will be 5 packets of tailwind plus a 2 caffeine gels for emergencies, and maybe a packet or two of shot bloks as treats, for the first half with the same again in my drop bag so I can replenish at half way. This should also mean the volume/weight of my fuel will be far less than in the past when I've also carried cereal bars, chia charge etc etc.
There will also be a pork pie or two and a bottle of real red coke in my drop bag
As an aside, FWIW I believe that 95%+ (I'd like to say 100% but that might be slightly aggressive) of cramp is nothing to do with electrolyte imbalance but down to muscle fatigue from inadequate training or pushing too hard.
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Jul 2018
8:23am, 10 Jul 2018
28,916 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
That's good real world experience there flanker. Agree very much that different people's tolerance for both types and volumes of calorie sources is a huge spectrum. I know folk are looking for guidance, but you they have to understand that unfortunately there are very few hard and fast rules - each individual's reaction to different fuel types can be very different.
And it can vary depending on day, conditions, exertion, ability on the day etc. What worked one day often won't work another. So being prepared to swap about, try different things etc. is also useful. I don't mean deliberately changing things for the sake of it, but if you're in the doldrums (whether that's tiredness, sickness etc.) try something different - if you're on fluids, try solids. If you're doing mostly sweet, try going savoury. If you're making do with low calories per hour, try a shot/boost of something higher calorie. If you're hydrating with just water and having probs, try going to electrolytes etc.
Basically Baden Powel with a twist: Be prepared (to change!) G
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