So who won the tour from 1999 to 2005

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The Teaboy Mar 2015 10:41am, 12 Mar 2015 12,611 posts	0 The Teaboy I have more sympathy for the domestiques who took EPO just to make a living than those who doped to win. Those at the front of the pack drove the requirements for those behind. Not only that, but the winners were those with the best doctors and those who responded best to the treatment. Someone else was probably the rightful winner of those events. Who we will never know.
Velociraptor Mar 2015 10:49am, 12 Mar 2015 32,205 posts	0 Velociraptor I can understand the mindset of middle-aged businessmen who are used to being the boss and to using whatever tactics it takes to keep them there taking the same mindset to their physical fitness, or middle-aged athletes who used to be competitive young athletes using a little bit of this and that to try to stave off the inevitable decline and stay on top "just for another year" or whatever. Or middle-aged women slipping a smidge of testosterone in with their HRT in the hope of stealing a march on the other women in their vet category in local races where they're never going to be tested. I don't approve - I'm a law-abiding sort of and if caffeine is banned I'll race caffeine-free (though I don't promise to train caffeine-free too) - but I understand.
SPR Mar 2015 11:06am, 12 Mar 2015 19,930 posts	0 SPR Hersh got up to this while serving his ban: letsrun.com
Velociraptor Mar 2015 11:13am, 12 Mar 2015 32,206 posts	0 Velociraptor More cognitive dissonance than a warped sense of humour, I'd like to think.
Molesy Mar 2015 2:22pm, 16 Mar 2015 1,852 posts	0 Molesy From the Hesch article: Hesch maintains that he never raced on EPO but used it to recover from injuries. “Maybe this is my cue to walk away, but I’m real tempted to make a real clear point that I can and have run all those times perfectly clean. It’s not that difficult to run these times, and it doesn’t take any outside help.” Because of course we all knock out 4 minute miles at the drop of a hat and then less than a day and a half later win a marathon ahead of Kenyans and Ethiopians by a big enough margin that he can show-boat by banging out a few press-ups on the finish line. No, it's not that difficult. Remind me again, what's that big river in NE Africa?
SPR Mar 2015 4:20pm, 17 Mar 2015 19,935 posts	0 SPR LA still wielding the cancer shield:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/31923891
Chrisull Mar 2015 10:05pm, 17 Mar 2015 7,008 posts	0 Chrisull Hmmm Thomas asked Armstrong to help out and Thomas has done a lot of good work for cancer charities . Robert Millar's "editorial" on Armstrong in the latest Rouleur is good too, he says he feels "neutral" about him and says like it or not, Armstrong has dragged the sport along, more mediaexposure, better wages for riders, he might be an odious, arrogant cheat, but he was only as dirty as the fetid swamp that spawned him. Ullrich, Beloki, Rumsas, they would have won in his absence. Maybe it was that dirty Chris Boardman would have won one year, unfortunately we'll never know.
SPR Mar 2015 10:27pm, 17 Mar 2015 19,937 posts	0 SPR Like I said, cancer shield. The fact he's being asked to help out at cycling fundraiser at the specific event his doping occurred says he's still benefiting. Armstrong is the type of guy that starts doping as he's looking for a way to get ahead. Comparing him to others who happened to dope at the same time is bollocks. Observing his behaviour tells you everything you need to know about him. Ullrich doped, but he didn't bully other riders or staff for not doping or testifying about doping. And as far as the USADA case against Armstrong is concerned, he did more than just dope. The stuff about media exposure, etc, is irrelevant, unless you want to say the UCI's help of Armstrong was justified.
Chrisull Mar 2015 10:37pm, 17 Mar 2015 7,011 posts	0 Chrisull The bullying is unpleasant but I see no difference between ullricj and Armstrong morally speaking. A cheat is a cheat whether he's nice or despicable about it and to be honest I trust the Armstrong school of brazenness over the David milllar tortured oohhh I didn't mean to im so fucked up and now I want redemption school. At least we know Armstrong cheated from the moment he started to the moment he stopped and don't have to guess
SPR Mar 2015 10:59pm, 17 Mar 2015 19,938 posts	0 SPR You mean you know Armstrong cheated now? As not many believed he did during his career until recently. Not everyone that dopes is a bad person, obviously there are pressures. There was talk in the UCI report of young riders being isolated from older riders and deliberately left to struggle so the once they were introduced to doping, they were more compliant. However someone had to start doping in the first place, and not everyone is a victim of pressure. Once doping starts, some pushes it the next level. I see a big difference between Armstrong and Ullrich et al. Doping is a decision that can be excused by pressures and culture, etc. The other stuff can't be. Morally, it obvious there's a big difference between them. It's only in the sports arena you can suggest there isn't a difference, however even WADA's code makes a difference between an instigator and a simple doper.