Polarized training

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Feb 2017
4:57pm, 8 Feb 2017
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Ceratonia
I did my 2nd lot of Billat 30-30 last night. I'm also running slightly further/faster than required, although that's more down to finding it hard to judge the required pace over 30s in the dark. I've also struggled to do anything other than walk the 30s recovery. While it feels very hard while you're doing it, it's also quite exhilarating. I plan to do one session of this per week for the next 8 weeks. Suspect that it will have some measurable effect as I only occasionally did anything that could be called 'speedwork' previously.
J2R
Feb 2017
6:04pm, 8 Feb 2017
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J2R
@Ceratonia, good to hear you're doing the 30-30s. I suspect you might be running the intervals too hard if you can't manage easy (and I mean really easy, half interval speed) recoveries. It may not matter much, though, as long as you can do the requisite number of reps without getting prematurely tired. I don't think there's any clear evidence that you need to jog, the point is to keep your heart in 'the zone' for as much of the 30 second recovery as you can without compromising your recovery, and a walk may do that as well as a jog.

As regards judging the distance, it's why I settled on going corner to corner of the rectangle grid in my local park, and set my time accordingly - it's impossible to get the distance wrong.
J2R
Feb 2017
6:26pm, 8 Feb 2017
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J2R
I'm sure it's been discussed somewhere, probably many times, in the preceding 134 pages, but I'd prefer not to have to trawl through all this again unless I have to!

So a quick question...Given that it is apparently best to keep below your first ventilatory threshold (VT1) for your easy runs, how do people determine what this is, without getting lab measurement? I've read a rule of thumb that it's typically around 77% of your maximum heart rate, but I'm not sure what the evidence for this is, nor whether it's 77% of your working heart rate (Karvonen) or actual maximum. It's what I have tended to go for myself, nonetheless, using absolute HRmax (giving a figure of 136bpm, as opposed to 147bpm if I'd used my working heart rate - really quite a difference).

However, I know Canute favours using breathing itself as the key, which seems eminently sensible. I've been breathing in for 4 foot strikes and out for 4 in the last couple of weeks, and find I can manage up to 142-143bpm easily enough doing this. The 'Talk Test' is supposed to be a good indicator but I'm nearly always running by myself and find it difficult to just keep waffling on into thin air.
Feb 2017
6:35pm, 8 Feb 2017
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Ninky Nonk
It doesn't really matter exactly where it is to run below it. It's a pretty blurry line anyway and will vary day to day.

There is a great big chunk of running BELOW the threshold for you to aim for. Just run in that.
Feb 2017
6:48pm, 8 Feb 2017
10,610 posts
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Chrisull
J2R - This is where I get confused. Looking at this link:

running.competitor.com

Quote: "In fact, in most laboratory exercise tests, the ventilatory and lactate thresholds fall close to the same exercise intensity. "

So 77% of MHR (176) this would be for me 135bpm.

Ok so got to Macmillan calculator, enter my 10k time from Sunday 42.35, which yields:

CURRENT TIMES vLT 7:02 (velocity at lactate threshold) vVO2 6:05 (velocity at VO2 max)

It had some hills in 10k so I think I'm fair to assume my vLT is round about 6.55 and my vVO2 is round about 6.00. (I could definitely run a 6 minute mile currently). So both of these are expected. Running at my vLT my HR is average 158 max 161. Again expected.

SO if ventilatory threshold is virtually same as lactate threshold. And that should be 135bpm. And my actual LT is 158bpm. This is where I get confused.

Shouldn't they be the same, if ventilatory threshold and lactate threshold are the same? My pace at 77% would be between 8.30 and 9.00 minute miling. Which bit have I got wrong?
Feb 2017
6:52pm, 8 Feb 2017
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Fenland (Fenners) Runner
I've only done slow stuff for just over two months and feeling the strongest ever. Endurance seems to have improved no end. Twenty milers are easy. :)
Feb 2017
8:10pm, 8 Feb 2017
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Ninky Nonk
There are two ventilatory thresholds. The first where you start to 'notice' your breathing . The second where you start to 'struggle' for breath.

The first vt broadly corresponds with lactate rising above resting levels. The second with 'lactate threshold'.
Feb 2017
8:29pm, 8 Feb 2017
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Fenland (Fenners) Runner
I'm currently running at a pace when breathing is not that different to walking ;-)
Feb 2017
8:34pm, 8 Feb 2017
2,583 posts
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Ninky Nonk
In fact lactate threshold can be defined in several different ways. If you believe it exists at all.

For now I'm guessing we mean anaerobic threshold or equivalent.
J2R
Feb 2017
8:34pm, 8 Feb 2017
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J2R
NN, how do I know what the threshold is to run below it? That's the question

@Chrisull, as Ninky Nonk said, there's VT1 and VT2. This explains it reasonably well: functionalandperformancefitness.blogspot.co.uk

About This Thread

Maintained by Canute
Polarised training is a form of training that places emphasis on the two extremes of intensity. There is a large amount of low intensity training (comfortably below lactate threshold) and an appreciable minority of high intensity training (above LT).

Polarised training does also include some training near lactate threshold, but the amount of threshold training is modest, in contrast to the relatively high proportion of threshold running that is popular among some recreational runners.

Polarised training is not new. It has been used for many years by many elites and some recreational runners. However, it has attracted great interest in recent years for two reasons.

First, detailed reviews of the training of many elite endurance athletes confirms that they employ a polarised approach (typically 80% low intensity, 10% threshold and 10% high intensity. )

Secondly, several scientific studies have demonstrated that for well trained athletes who have reached a plateau of performance, polarised training produces greater gains in fitness and performance, than other forms of training such as threshold training on the one hand, or high volume, low intensity training on the other.

Much of the this evidence was reviewed by Stephen Seiler in a lecture delivered in Paris in 2013 .
vimeo.com

In case you cannot access that lecture by Seiler in 2013, here is a link to his more recent TED talk.

ted.com
This has less technical detail than his 2013 talk, but is nonetheless a very good introduction to the topic. It should be noted that from the historical perspective, Seiler shows a US bias.

Here is another useful video by Stephen Seiler in which he discusses the question of the optimum intensity and duration of low intensity sessions. Although the answer ‘depends on circumstances’ he proposes that a low intensity session should be long enough to reach the point where there are detectable indications of rising stress (either the beginning of upwards drift of HR or increased in perceived effort). If longer than this, there is increasing risk of damaging effects. A session shorter than this might not be enough to produce enough stress to achieve a useful training effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GXc474Hu5U


The coach who probably deserves the greatest credit for emphasis on the value of low intensity training was Arthur Lydiard, who coached some of the great New Zealanders in the 1960's and Scandinavians in the 1970’s. One of his catch-phrases was 'train, don't strain'. However Lydiard never made it really clear what he meant by ‘quarter effort’. I have discussed Lydiard’s ideas on several occasions on my Wordpress blog. For example: canute1.wordpress.com

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