More efficient running style

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Canute Jun 2019 8:03pm, 18 Jun 2019 1,949 posts	0 Canute FR, If the average runner wishes to decrease risk of injury, the most helpful thing is to decrease braking forces. For many recreational runners, the easiest way (and probably safest way) to do this is to increase cadence, gradually. This might also decrease the risk of the microscopic damage that is associated with slowing down in the second half of a marathon. Increasing efficiency is a more complex task. The three main source of energy consumption during running are elevating the centre of mass, overcoming braking and cyclical repositioning of the limbs during the gait cycle. However, you do not maximise efficiency by arbitrarily decreasing one of these three. There needs to be compromise. Getting airborne can help decrease braking. Optimum efficiency required optimizing the total of all three source of energy consumption. Simply reducing one without considering the others does not help. Although Pose has helped many people, the theoretical principles are not consistent with the laws of physics. One unhelpful consequence of this inconsistency is that Pose theory under-estimates the need for a powerful push against the ground. I have discussed this with Nicholas Romanov. Despite his charisma and moderately sound intuitive grasp of running mechanics, he does not appear to understand some of the basic principles of physics. If you want to maximize efficiency you need to develop the strength to get airborne. If you do this in a well-graded way, you can also reduce the risk of injury, but if your attempts to get airborne exceed the strength you have developed, there is a high risk of injury. One reason why some recreational runners find that Pose reduces their rate of injury is that Pose discourage you from putting effort into the risky business of getting airborne. However, if you really want to achieve your peak performance level, you need to build up the strength required to get airborne safely.
HappyG(rrr) Jun 2019 8:30am, 19 Jun 2019 31,822 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) That's a great post, as ever, Canute. Thanks. That actually succinctly captures the objections to Pose that went on for hundreds of posts and weeks and months of wrangling on this thread 5 or 6 (or 8?!) years ago. I think Pose "felt" right, having done some of the basics, but wasn't the whole story. And the explanations were counter-intuitive to some partly because they didn't obey the laws of physics! Anyway, as a runner that wants to avoid injury, but isn't that bothered about performance improvement (halting performance decline might be nice though!) I'll stick with my attempt to keep cadence high, impact low and do a bit of strength and conditioning to support my training. G
Sharkie Jun 2019 8:40am, 19 Jun 2019 14,892 posts	0 Sharkie I don't have Canute's scientific knowlege but he expains what I said a few pages back 'It’s basically sprint training dismissing one important fact. ... Of COURSE there’s a push as well as a pull!' I knew the physics didn't add up. I train with triple and long jumpers and my coach is an ex international jumper so I was interested in 'that' discussion. Jumps training is really helping my form ... and speed. But it's hard work.
icenutter Jun 2019 8:46am, 19 Jun 2019 206 posts	0 icenutter An easy way to increase cadence is by listening to music with the appropriate cadence. On Spotify you can get playlists at various bpm. Just search for ‘175 bpm rock’ or whatever and something’ll come up. Work your current cadence first, then increase by 5 or 10bpm. There’s a mythical perfect 180bpm that I’m not sure about. But I’m certain that if your cadence is maybe 150 or 160, increasing it (gradually) is a good thing.
HappyG(rrr) Jun 2019 8:51am, 19 Jun 2019 31,825 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) I was amazed at the amount of leg strength training that I was given by international heptathlete, hurdler, runner Jade Nimmo. Must get back on it. G
Sharkie Jun 2019 8:55am, 19 Jun 2019 14,893 posts	0 Sharkie Well there you go HappyG! Those heptathletes know a thing or two!
SPR Jun 2019 9:30am, 19 Jun 2019 28,078 posts	0 SPR runnersworld.com
SPR Jun 2019 9:35am, 19 Jun 2019 28,079 posts	0 SPR There was one other minor detail that jumped out at me. The idea that everyone should aspire to run with a cadence of 180 (i.e., taking 180 steps per minute) under all circumstances, which first stemmed from observations of elite runners during races at the 1984 Olympics, has proven to be stubbornly persistent. I’ve written about this idea, and why I disagree with it, many times. One hugely important point is that cadence changes with speed: the faster you go, the quicker you step. So why should we expect to have the same cadence at 8:00 mile pace as Olympic runners do at 4:30 pace? Anyway, it’s worth looking at the cadence of these very elite Kenyan runners. Here it is at the slower pace (8:00 miles); it’s shown in full strides per seconds, so 1.5 corresponds to 180 steps per minute and 1.4 corresponds to 168: Only one of the 15 runners has a cadence above 180, and only one or two more are in the 170s. Most are in the 160s, with a few in the 150s and one down at 144. Again, this is 8:00 miles, so it’s jogging for these guys, but definitely not walking. At 4:50 per mile, on the other hand, here’s what it looks like: Now the median is pretty much right at 180, with half the runners higher and half lower. Only one runner is below about 174, and several are well over 200. In other words, the picture is completely different depending on whether these runners are running at warm-up pace or half marathon race pace. The same has been shown in pretty much every study that has looked at cadence as a function of speed. So why is anyone giving cadence advice that ignores how fast you’re going?
Garfield Jun 2019 9:36am, 19 Jun 2019 10,591 posts	0 Garfield Sounds good Happy G. I have an internal metronome...and can run music in my head to keep going at a steady metronomic style. (now that sounds really weird...but comes from either playing a lot of music or listening to it so much it's firmly in my head!)
SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss) Jun 2019 9:40am, 19 Jun 2019 447 posts	0 SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss) I don't want to open the same old debate again, but just to address the "... Of COURSE there’s a push as well as a pull!' " I don't think Pose denies there's a push in running. What they say is that the push is necessary to resist collapsing to the ground and to raise the COM back up to allow the change of support to happen. But their point is that this is an instinctive, involuntary action, and most importantly it's in the vertical direction not forward. So they advocate not specifically focusing on making it an action because it doesn't help you move forward.