More efficient running style

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HappyG(rrr) Jun 2019 6:09pm, 14 Jun 2019 31,771 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) improvemyrunning.com is a website by a coach called Matt Holland. He reckons you can get significant improvements with better form. Have a look at his videos paul. However, for me, it was mostly about injury avoidance. As you are injury free I wouldn't change a thing! That would be a dream for most people! G
icenutter Jun 2019 6:22pm, 14 Jun 2019 204 posts	0 icenutter Paul0 what’s your hamstring strength like, and specifically the difference between the two? If you imagine the quads provide the power, then the hamstrings control (stop) the motion. Weak or poor control = wobbly feet.
FenlandRunner Jun 2019 6:43pm, 14 Jun 2019 2,009 posts	0 FenlandRunner Memories, sweet memories. Where are they now? Be interesting if we did the 8 minute/mile test what the difference in %WHR would be to years ago!
Hills of Death (HOD) Jun 2019 10:50pm, 14 Jun 2019 34,553 posts	0 Hills of Death (HOD) Lean from the ankle strong core etc etc lol
Canute Jun 2019 2:21pm, 15 Jun 2019 1,944 posts	0 Canute Owen Anderson (author of Running Form) is a well informed and an enthusiast for good form. His ideas are informed by a good understanding of biomechanics but in my view, his enthusiasm leads him to over-estimates the need for devoting a lot of attention to form. Gordon Pirie introduced the idea that good form was necessary for ‘running fast and injury free’. In the subsequent few decades it came to be accepted that it was relevant to injury prevention and that runners who suffered repeated injury should devote attention to errors of style. It was less clear that it was worthwhile for an injury free recreational runner to work on style merely for the sake of increasing speed. However I think there is a second group of runners who should attend to style. These are the individuals who have a discrepancy between 5K time and marathon time despite doing an adequate number of long runs. In my view, one of the causes of this discrepancy is a running style that results in excessive microscopic muscle damage over the duration of marathon. This leads to slowing in the second half that is not simply due to running out of glycogen. A well trained runner who starts to slow down appreciably by around 15 miles into a a marathon should look into the question of running form.
SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss) Jun 2019 4:30pm, 15 Jun 2019 437 posts	0 SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss) The problem with the discussion on this subject over the past few years is that much of it has been focused on footstrike, in a way that suggested 'good' footstrike patterns was the key to unlocking good running form, when in actual fact it's the result or consequence of good running form. Everything went tits up from there
FenlandRunner Jun 2019 8:07pm, 15 Jun 2019 2,020 posts	0 FenlandRunner Well said, SSLHP. I despair when the majority of club runners perceive 'fore-foot' running to be the holy grail. Canute, I think you have over simplified the slowing down in the second half. I think there is far more going on than 'just' excessive miscoscopic muscle damage when related to marathon running.
Canute Jun 2019 10:35pm, 15 Jun 2019 1,945 posts	0 Canute FR, I agree there are potentially many reasons why people slow down in the second half of a marathon; that is why I sad 'one of the causes' is microscopic damage. Nonetheless, there is good evidence from studies of the accumulation of muscle proteins in the blood stream of runners who slow down indicating that microscopic damage is an important factor. The main way to build the resilience necessary to minimize this damage is to include regular long runs in the training program. But if that does not deal with the problem, it is worth considering how form might be adjusted to reduce impact forces.
Canute Jun 2019 9:42pm, 16 Jun 2019 1,946 posts	0 Canute Even if your suffer overt injury or excessive microscopic muscle damage, you face a challenge in deciding what change in running style might help. The problem arises because so much pf the literature on the subject has been based on testing the beliefs of influential coaches. The results have been inconclusive. However, it is encouraging to see that some thorough scientific research is at last being done, starting with the question: which aspects of running form are actually associated with higher risk of injury. Some recent thorough studies by Chris Napier (sports physiotherapist from Vancouver) confirm that peak braking force is the variable most strongly predictive of injury (at least in females training fora half marathon) ncbi.nlm.nih.gov Three characteristics of gait predict higher peak braking force: long stride, foot strike angle (ie heel strike worse than forefoot)) and landing a long way in front of the centre of mass. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov There is still too little evidence to justify confident conclusions but if you are facing a problem, you need to make the most of the evidence that is available. If I wanted to decrease injury (overt or microscopic) I would increase cadence (thereby decreasing stride length at a given speed) . If I was heel striker, I would also to land further forward on my foot, but I would make this change cautiously.
HappyG(rrr) Jun 2019 9:00am, 17 Jun 2019 31,773 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) Interesting stuff Canute - I never thought about running form deficiency causing cumulative damage in long endurance events, reducing performance at the later stages. Changing running form is incredibly difficult, I would say. You either need a lot of very good personal discipline and information or a very knowledgeable coach with lots of support. Even so, there are injury risks in making a change, and doing it badly. Which is ironic when what you are trying to do is reduce injury risk! G