More efficient running style

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SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss) Apr 2018 12:06pm, 3 Apr 2018 352 posts	0 SSLHP (Shoes smell like horse piss) Interesting read Canute. One thing I've developed, for some reason, over the past year or so is that in races I let myself be overwhelmed with negative thoughts, which lead to my having to stop for a few seconds and 'reset'. I've done it in my last marathon and half marathon. I don't want this to become a habit, so I need to do something about it. The thing is, I know my legs aren't tired and I'm don't feel overly fatigued -it's definitely a mental thing. I don't know where it's come from.
Sharkie Apr 2018 12:25pm, 3 Apr 2018 13,196 posts	0 Sharkie Ah brilliant! A new Canute blog. So glad I popped in here.
J2R Apr 2018 1:56pm, 3 Apr 2018 1,116 posts	0 J2R Like SSHLP and Canute, I use 4 in, 4 out breathing as an indicator that I'm below VT1. I seem to be able to do this at a rather higher heart rate than I would have expected, though, quite a bit above the 77% or so MHR which I understand to be typical for VT1. I'm wondering whether I have an unusually high VT1 (in terms of HR), or whether 4-4 is not a good enough indicator for me and I should use something like 5-5 instead.
SPR Apr 2018 2:24pm, 3 Apr 2018 25,855 posts	0 SPR I posted this across the page: "I generally just let breathing do what it wants within the confines of staying relaxed. I go from nose breathing, to out with mouth as well, on to in and out with nose and mouth as pace increases. Not something I consciously try and control." Further to this, I was mindful of footfall Vs breathing on my progressive run yesterday which had about 3mm between the fastest and slowest pace. It seems I 2:2 at all paces, it's how I breathe that changes.
Canute Apr 2018 3:23pm, 3 Apr 2018 1,867 posts	0 Canute J2R Heart rate is only rude estimate of cardiac output because cardiac output is determined by the product of stroke volume and rate. Oxygen exchange in the lungs is determined by breathing rate, tidal volume and the oxygen gradient from alveoli to lung capillaries which decreases the longer air remains in the alveoli. Therefore neither breathing rate nor heart rate provide a direct measure of the two quantities that matter here: oxygen transport and cardiac output. HR and breathing rate should both be interpreted in light of how reliable they are as markers of how stressful it is to run at a particular pace. Rate of recovery from a session is in some respects a more reliable indicator of how stressful a run is. I quite like Lydiard’s ¼ and ½ effort scheme for quantifying training effort. A ¼ effort session is one that you could comfortably repeat immediately, while a ½ effort session is one could comfortably repeated the next day. Although duration clearly comes in to equation here, I regard a ¼ effort sessions as roughly corresponding to a sub VT1 session and a ½ effort sessions as corresponding to a session at an effort between VT1 and VT2. The crucial thing about training is avoiding cumulative stress and recovery is what counts. If after running for 60 minutes at 4:4 you feel you could comfortably do that for another 60 minutes at that pace it is probably sub VT1 (provided leg muscle resilience is adequate), and almost certainly not leading to cumulative stress. SPR, as implied in my response to J2R, it appears that you are adjusting tidal volume rather than breathing rate. I see no problem with that. The goal is to promote a sense of calm control over ones physiological state, appropriate to the circumstances. You do not necessarily have to be aware of breathing, but if you feel a mounting sense of discomfort and rising fatigue, it is worthwhile analysing the problem in order to retain a sense of control over the situation.
SPR Apr 2018 7:38pm, 3 Apr 2018 25,856 posts	0 SPR Canute - Interesting re adjusting tidal volume. I'm aware of breathing, just don't generally try and control it (although the general mantra of staying relaxed exerts some control I guess). It's the footfall connection I'd never made before, and given it doesn't seem to change that makes sense. I think the relax mantra means my breathing changes when it should, but it is worth monitoring to make sure it isn't a limiting factor. As said before, I agree with the need for confidence and as you said, real confidence not false bravado. One of the reasons I want to do a 400m this year (apart from it means I'd have done all flat outdoor track distances), is if I know how that feels, it'll give me more confidence attacking the first lap of an 800m. 800m was the one race last year where doubts meant I might not have got the best out of myself. With 1500m to 5000m I'm confident I can attack those and I'm unlikely to get it wrong. Above that I haven't raced much apart from XC so again wouldn't be as confident running on the limit.
HappyG(rrr) Jun 2019 4:48pm, 14 Jun 2019 31,766 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) Ooh, is this thread still going. Was very controversial, back in its day. Led to a few flounces! G
icenutter Jun 2019 4:53pm, 14 Jun 2019 203 posts	0 icenutter Holy thread revival Batman. Has anyone read ‘Running Form’? Running Form: How to Run Faster and Prevent Injury amazon.co.uk It’s a good book; accessible without being dumbed down. It’s certainly changed the way I think about running form, and has made me try to tweak things for the better.
HappyG(rrr) Jun 2019 5:00pm, 14 Jun 2019 31,770 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) Lol! It's Fetch's fault. He created that Bounce or Renounce thread and page that lists all your old threads on your watchlist. A trip down memory lane! Haven't read that one icenutter, but it sounds interesting. I still do "top of head to sky, lead with the pelvis, don't bend at waist" type mantra even after all these years! G
paul0 Jun 2019 5:41pm, 14 Jun 2019 249 posts	0 paul0 ooh interesting thread name. I haven't read it all (or indeed much), but a thread revival seems a good time to crash in. Because I have a specific question...but first some background! I have atrocious running form. --My lower legs go significantly to the side, i.e. instead of my foot and lower leg going directly behind me, at the top of the backswing my leg is at an angle from my knee backwards and foot is approximately 15cms horizontally from my body. --I get relatively low lift in driving my legs forwards (someone described it as running from my knee). --I heel strike --However, I run quite smoothly (little noise), have no pronation and few injuries over c. 10 years. I'd appreciate thoughts on the first of these points. I've put this down to my natural biomechanics in my knee (and maybe tight hamstrings). I've generally taken the view that while I could probably improve form, I don't suffer many injuries and it's just the way I am (I have the same view of forefoot striking, I could just about accept it may be objectively better, but for me the effort required to change to get there is not worth it). But now I'm wondering if there are some marginal gains to be had here as I'm sure my style is not efficient...