Bob Graham Round
128 watchers
Nov 2016
2:55pm, 8 Nov 2016
4,570 posts
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Jovi Runner
I'm not sure how I feel about the p"pay to guide". I can see it has its benefits for those who would like to attempt it and have no connections to the Lakes or running communities there but equally I am anti anything that encourages simply the highest bidder to achieve something. However, fell running itself cant really claim to be done wholly for purely altruistic not for money reasons. If we want to be completely pernickety (lights touch paper and stands back ) a lot of fell races started as "guides" races where the winners received money. At that time it made perfect sense as a means of making money from your skills. I suppose what Mountain Guide are doing is similar in a sort of way.
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Nov 2016
2:56pm, 8 Nov 2016
4,571 posts
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Jovi Runner
oops - Mountain Run.
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Nov 2016
5:01pm, 8 Nov 2016
730 posts
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flyingfinn
Vrap, Scott and Ricky Gates who he did his round with are both members successive numbers in early 2014. So yes the club recognised his round but as far as I am aware their support wasn't paid it was provided voluntarily by other runners in the spirit of the club. But I can see your implied point about Scott basically not really having a clue what country he was in, never mind which fell he was on, not really being in the spirit of the Round (and I'm inclined to agree that isn't in the spirit either, though I know of quite a few from Northern and even Lakeland clubs to whom the same would apply!) and that is where the whole discussion about the ethics of a Round gets really grey because its impossible to measure and define what counts and what doesn't in that context (what ever you may think privately..... ) In Mountain Run's case they have chosen to cross a clear line (i.e. asking for payment for providing support) and perhaps rather set themselves up to be the Aunt Sally's for feelings about the Round's traditions and the way things are changing. Is that fair, probably not. Jovi, I'm not sure you can directly compare fell racing and monetary reward for success (which still happens) with support for the BGR and the tradition that this would be provided voluntarily by the BG community but I understand the point about making money from your skills and Charlie's response (though rather rambling) based on that point is a fair view. On reflection I've reached the conclusion that a point that Vrap made in an earlier post about people still having to be good enough is actually the most important thing. I suspect a large percentage of the people attracted by this approach simply won't have the fell legs/background to be successful and they aren't going to magically acquire them by spending two half days in the Lakes and then heading off back to London with a training plan. So in terms of the impact on the future membership of the club and it's traditions it's going to have no more impact than those who have previously been dragged round without a clue or have even gone as far as faking a round (and yes there have been some), so I'm inclined to say good luck to Mountain Run and suspect by next autumn it will be a forgotten subject. |
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Nov 2016
5:10pm, 8 Nov 2016
731 posts
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flyingfinn
But for the record if you ask me for support and I don't think you've got a clue where you're going you'll get a very short response. I expect people I support to be able to discuss/specify their preferred lines and see my job as making sure they take their intended route not as one of defining it for them.
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Nov 2016
5:10pm, 8 Nov 2016
4,154 posts
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Northern Exile
Stu - that's the one. There are so many caveats and counter-arguments to this that I expect the issue will rattle on for months. The point that Velociraptor makes about Scott Jurek and Ricky Gates is a good one, for they were certainly guided around the BGR and with the full involvement of the BGR 24-hour club. Would they have got round without that guidance? Almost certainly not. Is that a problem? I don't think so, not to my mind anyhow. They're both [elite] Americans with limited time on their hands, they were guests in our country and I think we should/could afford to be magnaminous. I know this may sit uncomfortably with some people, particularly when their rounds are compared with that of Alicia Huddelston [another American], as she certainly had to work for it and had a previous attempt under her belt prior to her successful round earlier this year. Everyone will interpret this in a different way, however I suspect the real reason why so many people will be against the idea of a professional guide taking someone round the BGR is that it will be diametrically opposite to their own experience. For me, the best thing about doing the BGR was the shared experiences leading up to the day, not just a personal achievement. I've often said it, but I'm actually glad that my first attempt wasn't successful, because the second one was so much better and I learned from my mistakes. And that's the point - you have to learn and it's bloody painful for the most part. Most people who successfully get round the BGR will have suffered to some degree and while I'm always overjoyed to hear of a successful round, I want it to be on the same basis and tenets that I adhered to, otherwise it just doesn't seem fair. |
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Nov 2016
5:12pm, 8 Nov 2016
4,155 posts
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Northern Exile
Absolutely. Well said FF. [But for the record if you ask me for support and I don't think you've got a clue where you're going you'll get a very short response. I expect people I support to be able to discuss/specify their preferred lines and see my job as making sure they take their intended route not as one of defining it for them] |
Nov 2016
5:19pm, 8 Nov 2016
16,693 posts
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flanker
well said, ff, ne. Once all the social media guff has blown over I think you're right that it will make little difference, and it will still remain a personal journey, where the pleasure in in the travelling rather than in arriving. I know from a personal point of view when I eventually get around to a round, i.e when we move and I get the time to immerse myself in it properly, that's what's going to matter. I'm reasonably confident I could get 'guided' around today and complete, but I can't see any point in doing so. The pleasure for me will be spending time out there, learning the terrain in detail, and in being able to share that with those of like mind. If others want to go out there and 'buy' things to wave their willy about, let them. Good luck to those who take the cash of these people who obviously have too much. The ultras scene over the last few years has been a bit like that, but already the fad seems to be fading and the events that seem to be prospering are those put on 'by runners, for runners' and I suspect this will go the same way. |
Nov 2016
6:39pm, 8 Nov 2016
21,925 posts
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Derby Tup
I have a theory that you've not really "done the Bob Graham" unless you failed at least once and until you've genuinely helped someone else get round, who wouldn't have otherwise succeeded. This isn't me judging other peoples' achievements but simply what I feel Oh and anyone who hasn't immersed themselves in the fells, the hard graft in the pissing rain and wind, the hanging around in a car park or lay by in the middle of the night looking out for headtorches, the random meetings with other BG'ers in the pub, or on the hill has missed out too. The BG is so much more than the list, a certificate or the club (and I was desperate for all three for a good while) |
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Nov 2016
6:46pm, 8 Nov 2016
21,927 posts
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Derby Tup
Quote ff On reflection I've reached the conclusion that a point that Vrap made in an earlier post about people still having to be good enough is actually the most important thing. I suspect a large percentage of the people attracted by this approach simply won't have the fell legs/background to be successful and they aren't going to magically acquire them by spending two half days in the Lakes and then heading off back to London with a training plan. So in terms of the impact on the future membership of the club and it's traditions it's going to have no more impact than those who have previously been dragged round without a clue or have even gone as far as faking a round (and yes there have been some), so I'm inclined to say good luck to Mountain Run and suspect by next autumn it will be a forgotten subject Spot on! Incidentally the folk who don't have fells on their doorstep but find ways of getting fit / tough / hard enough to succeed have nothing but admiration from me |
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Nov 2016
9:06am, 9 Nov 2016
21,936 posts
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Derby Tup
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