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Mar 2019
1:05pm, 20 Mar 2019
7,045 posts
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larkim
5x1km at 5k pace after a 3 mile warm up jog was more than doable on the times I've followed the plan. Though it is dependent on what you deem to be your 5k pace.
Assuming the 5x1km result in about 8km being run including the recoveries. 3 before and 2 after gives the 10 overall. I won't pretend they are a piece of cake, but they shouldn't be. In the plan I think the 3x1600m at 5k pace is marginally harder, but psychologically "only" having three to do feels easier. At the time I was running the interval reps at sub 18 pace too, which I don't think I was capable of achieving in a 5k race (though that might be me selling myself short).
I felt like these sessions, because of the overall length, *forced* me to warm up and cool down properly and with sufficient volume.
Maybe because I was only doing the 35-55 mpw schedule, there was sufficient recovery allowance to help with intervals. In a higher volume plan perhaps fatigue would make these harder?
I personally think the long tempos are more challenging - 12 with 7 at 10 mile-HM race pace is a harder one to knock out I think. And then often a MLR the day afterwards too. In fact, that's me tonight / tomorrow - I'm up to the 10 incl 5 @ tempo, and then have 11 tomorrow night (though domestic circumstances might mitigate against that).
On the long runs, in the 12 weeks up to Chester I did 1x19, and 3x20, just pushing out the P&D plan by a handful of miles on a couple of runs. Nothing scientific about it, but I felt I could manage 20 mile runs and recover well enough to complete the rest of the plan in the following week to a good standard, so thought "why not?"
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Mar 2019
1:25pm, 20 Mar 2019
14,262 posts
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Chrisull
I know what my 5k pace is - it's marginally 20/sub 20, and recent 10k (Feb) - 41.21 with a couple of hills - predicts a 5k time of 19.49. My pb on the track is 19.28. So yes that also seems within the boundaries. To be honest it's fairly easy to calculate, it's a 4 minute 1km. I can do that. I can do that repeatedly. I normally take 2 minutes recovery, can do 1 if need be, but neither are pleasant. It's the being part of a longer distance.
The 12 with 7 at 10 mile-HM would be an absolute killer. HM pace varies quite a bit. Anything from 6.50 to 7.10 it could be, hard to know until the day... Hmm that is a punishing schedule and it could easily tip me into overtraining.
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Mar 2019
1:34pm, 20 Mar 2019
7,047 posts
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larkim
P&D suggests 50-90% time recovery, so 4 minute per 1km with a 3 minute recovery jog is OK. The rest of the miles at a very easy receovery pace (e.g. 8:30-9:00+) shouldn't cause any issues.
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Mar 2019
3:14pm, 20 Mar 2019
30,804 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Chris, I usually do it off 90s or 2 min recoveries (just cos that's what I'm used to!) and 5 x 1km at 1km with 4 nice recoveries really is doable, once you're at that stage of the plan.
Re lack of 20 milers, completely agree, and I have always increased the long runs to 20 miles basically every weekend that I could. Allowing for natural breaks (holidays, chores, other life in the way, that ends up being at least 5 or 6 and maybe 10 in the most rigorously executed training. Can't have too many 20 milers!  G
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Mar 2019
3:25pm, 20 Mar 2019
14,264 posts
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Chrisull
Ok so just did their diet version of it which worked out at
7.84 miles with 5 * 600m at 5k pace.
Aerobically it was not a problem, but my legs were mashed. Yes I managed, but the recovery miles back were absolute hell. Couldn't have managed 5 * 1000m and then 2-3 miles afterwards. Part of the problem is the hills running 2 or so miles back with several hundred feet of climbing is punishing (hence we drive there to do the session).
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Mar 2019
3:27pm, 20 Mar 2019
30,807 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
5 x 600m is the "easy" week version of intervals Chris, in P&D. Usually if you have / had a killer long run or weekend race.
3 x 1600m, 4 x 1200m, 5 x 1km, 6 x 800m and even 12 x 400m have all been pretty tough in P&D type intervals! G
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Mar 2019
3:29pm, 20 Mar 2019
14,266 posts
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Chrisull
I think my 21.5 with 2200ft of climbing mainly in the last 7 miles counts as a killer long run. (and that's only 2 weeks of my 20 mile race), and the week after that I did a 20 miler as well - as I am the coach leading the marathon training long runs.
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Mar 2019
3:33pm, 20 Mar 2019
7,049 posts
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larkim
I'd definitely recommend a flat warm down!
Your experience of that 5x600m session was exactly my response to a similar session when i first encountered these in the P&D plan. The cool down was absolutely the hardest part. But the second time I did it which was easier, and then easier etc as each one got done. I rationalised that the cooldown jogs of 2 miles or so were just what many runners do anyway after a session, and I've run a PB 5k off a 3 mile warm up in the past. So physically it really shouldn't be a big stretch.
I also make sure I do the whole thing without a milli-second of stopping - just adjust the watch on the fly and don't allow myself to stiffen up etc. I read how others stop, take a breather, reset the watch etc and get going again, and that impresses me - I'd not get going again!
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Mar 2019
3:38pm, 20 Mar 2019
30,808 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Larks, to hit the paces, I would usually be doing intervals on a track in a group. We regroup at the start / finish line and it's either standing, walking or at best jogging. Normally I'd be heaving up with effort with those intervals though (sometimes a bit ahead of 5km pace, to be fair!)
That's where the whole structure of P&D is good though Chris. You're not expected to do a killer intervals in the days immediately after a killer long run. It's reasonably important to stick to those "hard / easy" principles that they describe in the book.
Double for me today. Ran an easy one at lunch time and it's club intervals tongith. Count yourselves lucky: the club I'm with now has intervals of 200m down to about 80m and it's all eyeballs out stuff. I'm not used to this! G
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Mar 2019
3:47pm, 20 Mar 2019
7,050 posts
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larkim
That's one of the reasons I wouldn't want to train with a group! Too much absence of control over the length of recoveries, standing around etc etc.
Accepting that my watch may mis-measure, I'm happy to use a consistent patch of residential road and fixed markers on there to start and stop watches by so I know the times that I run (and are therefore comparable over time) for consistent pacing etc. A track would add a definitive dimension to the precise distances, but it's a nice quiet patch of road so I don't get much disturbed by traffic etc.
Whether I'd hit higher paces if I did train with a group, I don't know - but I do know I've always found it possible to hit target paces solo and get self motivated to last the distance etc.
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