Pacifism
1 lurker |
16 watchers
Feb 2024
2:29pm, 20 Feb 2024
84,656 posts
|
Diogenes
I'm not going to get involved in a fight over pacifism
|
Feb 2024
2:44pm, 20 Feb 2024
21,123 posts
|
Chrisull
Unlike most posters on this thread, my family have been in *exactly* this situation in Sudetenland in the 1940s (as abandoned by Neville Chamberlain lest we forget). My grandfather and uncle went to concentration camps, one never to return. Another uncle was lost on the eastern front (literally lost, he was never found). Although never spoken about I assume that brothers were on opposite sides one due to forced Nazi conscription (but who knows for sure?). My father came to England as a refugee but signed up in the last year of the war when he came of age. Three of my great uncles on my mother's side in England were conscientious objectors. One of them got his car upended and set alight (and he joined up). You defend yourself where necessary, but really in Europe the choices were die, be captured, live under occupation or run. (yes there were resistance movements but their roles were often overplayed) War usually isn't a clearcut, pick up your rifle and fight the baddies. It's a mess of competing national interests. There is a kind of romanticisation of war in this country that the rest of Europe really doesn't have/no longer has. The Danes had similar until 1864 according to the book I've read and the dramatisation. The absolute massacre of their entire army, which funnily enough the politicians survived as did one or two generals, IMO has made an indelible mark on their national psyche. Once you've massively been on the losing side and know NO defence is possible, you tend not to romanticise it. The British legends of the Charge of the Light Brigade (or the Americans Last stand of Custer), have this death and glory attached to them, that really isn't there. History is written by the victor. If I was out by my bronze age hut, and I got set on and decided to fight back and got killed as did my family, I might be immortalised in a song or two and my ancestors might raise a standing stone. But end of the day, they're all dead. Of course I will defend my family and friends. But in an existential situation such as Ukraine, what do you do if at the end of the day the outcome is that you get subsumed into the Russian state (as grows ever more likely)? Would I rather die in the trenches of Ukraine or take off for the UK and US with my family? Evolution doesn't favour the best fighters, it favours the survivors. Some of my favourite parts of history are the lost kingdoms of England or Europe. But there are reasons they are no longer on the map. War is hell. But people are suffering right now regardless of wars. Wars are often fought in the name of people whose lives it doesn't improve. Iraq. Afghanistan. Vietnam. If we want to end suffering, you'd be better off looking to end poverty, inequality, climate change and doing your bit no matter how small or token, than picking up a gun and making an already inflamed situation worse. That's the thing war tends to expand outwards, and rarely have neat, clear cut endings. The second world war is the ONLY war where we might have been in a situation that in the UK our way of life was directly threatened. But as we see in Gaza, both sides commit rape, murder with impunity. Once the fighting starts there's rarely a moral high ground. Look at the Civil war in this country, what actually did it change? 11 years later the monarchy was restored, religious tolerance was not really any better. Parliament was a bit more sovereign. Yet 1 in 10 males (more than the 1st or 2nd world war) had died. For what? |
|
Feb 2024
2:58pm, 20 Feb 2024
21,124 posts
|
Chrisull
NE - I don't see my world view is defeatist. A better (but currently impossible) world is one without wars. I think the history of how we evolved is amazing - and finding out that the hunter gather times weren't quite the violent, "nasty, brutish and short" epithet that Thomas Hobbes coined, is interesting - not that I'd choose to live in them. But I find that it repeats itself again and again and again. And that I find depressing and avoidable. At the end of the day it's the military that came knocking on my family's door, expounding family, religion and love of the fatherland. And then making them wear yellow stars, arbitrarily locking them up and sending them to their death. So you can see why I despise the military. For most in the UK a) it never happened and b) it's three or more generations away. For me, this is "recent" history (one generation away). I have no close family who are older than me. A refugee's view. It's like when I watch football, and I want my team to win, but at the end of the game, I understand the opposition's fans also want the same, and by and large they are no different to me. But you choose not to argue my points but to belittle me and throw shade and hate at me on these forums, because you don't want to debate but to make ad hominem attacks, again and again. (and borderline threaten others in fields case) Here I rest my case. |
Feb 2024
3:06pm, 20 Feb 2024
23,413 posts
|
3M
I suspect we have a very simplified view of history taught to us. We often forget there was an earlier civil war in England -"The Anarchy" - en.wikipedia.org which was very much about succession to the throne of England(ish). I didn't even hear about that until I was in my twenties, at least! Likewise we don't get to hear about "the aftermath" of WW2 outside of England and Western Europe - think about the subsequent dismantling of the British Empire and assorted partisan groups pounding seven bells out of each other as a result, continuing to the present day (Middle East most notably, but probably also still affecting most of Africa to some degree). The point being that it's too easy for most of us to talk about the impacts of war, without first hand experience of either fighting in one, or living through the immediate aftermath. I think I'd like the recruits to run the Government for a few years, around foreign policy at least. I found a trip around the Peace Museum in Caen (Normandy) a very sobering experience a few years ago. I think my view on "national" conflict is to hope and pray to God that it never comes to my door, but to be very thankful and appreciative of those who are willing to take up arms to defend me/mine/my way of life. And although I'm probably now too old to ever be recruited, I think I would have gone if required. I admit I'm not so happy about that being my children and grandchildren being required to do the same. |
Feb 2024
3:14pm, 20 Feb 2024
10,171 posts
|
Northern Exile
Absolutely not my intention to belittle you, I am trying my best to understand your point of view and clearly not doing a good job of it. I think the best thing I can do is to withdraw from this thread, I don't think I can contribute anything of value anyhow and I certainly don't want to be accused of ad hominem attacks on anyone. The problem here I think, is that strong opinions evoke strong emotions and as I said before, I am quite certain that you are as appalled by me as I am you. p.s. I have no idea what you mean by my "borderline threatening fields". Clearly you thought that I did, however I will perhaps have to accept that with a wry smile. It's a hard world out there and if you decide to kick an old, battle-scarred dog it shouldn't come as much of a surprise if he bites back. |
Feb 2024
3:25pm, 20 Feb 2024
31,775 posts
|
Johnny Blaze
I'm not going to get involved in a fight over pacifism I made a similar gag when this was posted... |
Feb 2024
3:37pm, 20 Feb 2024
27,529 posts
|
TROSaracen
Would you die in a ditch over being acknowledged as first to make the gag??....
|
|
Feb 2024
3:38pm, 20 Feb 2024
31,776 posts
|
Johnny Blaze
I'm a lover not a fighter.
|
|
Feb 2024
3:40pm, 20 Feb 2024
31,777 posts
|
Johnny Blaze
I do like a "broad sweep of History" post. More than most, so I do. But "what does anything I do matter when measured against the eventual heat death of the Universe?" won't cut it as a response when Mrs B tells me to put the green bin out. |
|
Feb 2024
4:12pm, 20 Feb 2024
21,125 posts
|
Chrisull
Lol - same here. I do think the hypothetical questions of "would you defend your family if nazis came knocking on your door?" and "would you join up to fight a war against nazis who might come knocking at your door at some point in the future" are quite different. The answer to 1) is hell yes, the answer to 2) is there really, really, really no other alternative? And would the people I will be fighting against any more or less worthy of life than me? As to NE - yeah fields does dish out quite a lot of nonsense to be fair. It reminds me of an online fight between two friends of mine over politics at university. One a revolutionary leftie and the one nation Tory. I went up to a student loans demo with the former. We were waiting for the coach back, when he turned up, he looked breathless - "where you been?" "oh just been slashing all the tyres of the Porsches on a posh street". It was like "really WTF?" Possibly one of the stupidest things I'd heard. Had to admit barely spoke to him after that, and the one nation Tory was far, far preferable he even came to my wedding. I find quite often the people I share politics with, I can have less in common with than people with differing views. Does that make me a hypocrite? |
Related Threads
-
Politics
Jan 2025
-
Coronavirus discussion thread
Jan 2025
-
Economics
Jan 2025
-
The Environment Thread :-)
Jan 2025
-
God Botherers - 'Fess Up!
Dec 2024
-
What or who do you hate but everybody else seems to love??
Nov 2024
-
Who or what, despite widespread incomprehension and incredulous despair, remains inexplicably popular?
Jul 2024
-
Heathen unbelievers - BBQ here
May 2023
-
Dear Scottish Fetchies
Jan 2023
-
Silly question but……
Nov 2022
