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14 Feb
11:48am, 14 Feb 2024
84,552 posts
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Diogenes
"...And if, in that split second in incredibly tense situations you get it wrong, then you can go through a world of shit."
I'm sure that's a great comfort to the families of those that are killed.
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14 Feb
12:22pm, 14 Feb 2024
16,882 posts
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Dave W
I'm sure it's not. But doesn't mean that it's not the case. You put yourself in harms way, and then your decisions get reviewed by a load of Monday morning quarterbacks. But, there should be accountability, but if there weren't people willing to take the job, it would be chaos. Or anarchy, or anarchic chaos.
So, are you saying that no-one should do the job? And if so, can you please give us a rough idea of where you live, because I would also like to live in a nirvana.
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14 Feb
1:19pm, 14 Feb 2024
84,555 posts
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Diogenes
I come from the position of wanting to make things better. I don't like to accept necessary evils. This comes originally from naive idealism, but also owes a lot to direct experience of a situation that went wrong.
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15 Feb
8:47am, 15 Feb 2024
10,157 posts
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Northern Exile
You know Dio, I think everyone wants to make things better and I think it's true that everyone is an idealist to some degree, the crucial thing here is the direction of your idealism.
In life, you have to be pragmatic to a degree and speaking personally I am realistic as to the evils of this world and know that's not going to change, it really isn't just a case of refusing to accept them. As an example I didn't want to be separated from my wife and small children for months on end, doing a dangerous and mentally damaging job, but it's a good thing thing that I and thousands of others did so otherwise the benevolent and peaceful society that people like you and Happy enjoy would be quite different. What sort of Britain would we have if we hadn't stood up to the Nazis? Or if Kennedy hadn't stood up to Khrushchev?
Time has distanced us from those painful memories, yet the world is an infinitely more dangerous place than it has been for many years, wringing your hands and decrying the wrongness of it all won't save you or your family if our country is invaded and marauding troops rampage through your home. And yet, I would say that our democracy is still kindly enough to allow you your opinion and even be safe in making it public. What would be the situation if you espoused that in, say, North Korea? A bullet to the back of the head in a public square? Even in Russia today it would probably earn you incarceration.
Enjoy your freedom, you too Happy. You're welcome.
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15 Feb
9:49am, 15 Feb 2024
1,230 posts
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Hertford Tiger
This is a really interesting discussion, thanks Happy.
I have always considered myself a pacifist. I do realise that this is a bit of an idealistic position and relies upon others to also be pacifist however in my opinion it is something that we should aspire to be.
I am lucky that I have lived in the UK in a relatively peaceful period when I have had no need to take up arms. I have no idea how I would react if I lived in Gaza, Khartoum or Sanaa, I suspect I would be sorely tempted to defend myself.
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15 Feb
11:48am, 15 Feb 2024
16,886 posts
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Dave W
And thereby hangs the tale. Some people can live in relative peace because others are willing and able to do violence on their behalf.
But in doing so you very rarely get out unscathed. Quite a few of my ex colleagues have mental health issues. Or physical issues. Or both.
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15 Feb
11:52am, 15 Feb 2024
49,405 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Again, haven't got time at mo to write back more fully, but whether you believe this is sincere or not, I am thankful for and grateful to those in Armed Forces and Police and other security services, as individuals. I recognise their hard work and sacrifices directly contribute to my security and freedom, which in turn allow me to luxury of this discussion. I hope it doesn't preclude the ability to have the discussion though. Thanks all.
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15 Feb
12:25pm, 15 Feb 2024
10,159 posts
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Northern Exile
Sincere? No. Hypocritical in the extreme? Most certainly.
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15 Feb
12:41pm, 15 Feb 2024
49,406 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Hmm. OK. I'm sorry you feel that way. The fact that I have family and friends who have served doesn't allow you to believe that I might have valued and appreciated them? Even if you don't believe I could possibly respect and appreciate those in the services that I don't know?
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15 Feb
1:48pm, 15 Feb 2024
16,889 posts
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Dave W
I am happy to believe that you are sincere in what you say HGrr.
I have no reason to doubt you. But I also think that pacifists are somewhat naive about the world we live in. It would be great if the world were so. It would be a lot nicer place to live. And I am happy that your life experiences have allowed you to form the views you have and I hope that nothing ever comes along and changes you. My experiences on the other hand, haven’t been the same.
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Politics
Dec 2024